Joe Wilson

Joe Wilson (00:00):
The policy back then, at least at the firm, was you can't take a deposition or even defend a deposition until year five.

Bob Simon (00:06):
What? We do things opposite. I have a few lawyers that were trying cases while in law school. You identify that unique talent, why not nurture it?

Joe Wilson (00:14):
Ironically, although this was a labor and employment firm in Atlanta where you have a lot of African-Americans, I was the only Black male lawyer there.

Bob Simon (00:23):
And how do you feel about being a Black trial lawyer?

Joe Wilson (00:25):
I'm not going to lie that it's not in the back of my mind sometimes. A lot of that stuff sometimes is in your mind, and all you have to do is just thinking about connecting with people. And if you have a good case, you have a good case.

Bob Simon (00:49):
Welcome to this episode of Bourbon of Proof, where we interview those in law that have been both successful at law and life. And we do so over a series of spirits. We usually do three. Today we have two, simply because these are two excellent, excellent bourbon whiskeys and we are excited to share it with none other than the Joe Wilson.

Joe Wilson (01:09):
Appreciate you guys having me on. Thanks for having me.

Bob Simon (01:13):
Of course. We have our esteemed co-host today, Mr. Mauro Fiore.

Mauro Fiore (01:16):
I've only had a few drinks today, so I'm still at the top of my game.

Bob Simon (01:20):
Yeah, it's not even noon, so it's fine. But we're filming today in Atlanta in the south.

Joe Wilson (01:24):
Yep. Hometown.

Bob Simon (01:25):
Yeah, Joe's hometown. So I'm going to start with this pour. This is where we usually like to start. This one's called The Representative. Now this is barrel proof. So this one's coming in hot.

Joe Wilson (01:40):
Barrel proof. What's that? Educating me.

Bob Simon (01:43):
Barrel proof is when it comes out the barrel, that's what it is. They don't have to dumb it down or get it down. So bottled in bond means it's usually a hundred proof. You see bottled in bond, a hundred proof, 50% alcohol.

(01:53):
Barrel proof is usually stronger than that. So this one is going to be 114 or 115 proof, so you're looking at about 57% alcohol. But the reason I selected this one, so this was aged for at least two congressional terms as they say, and it does say right here. But this is a Kentucky one. But I always saw you as a very passionate advocate and a passionate person for the people. And I think one day, I can see you being a representative for all people. So I'm giving you a good pour, Joe Wilson.

Joe Wilson (02:28):
Thank you. Very fitting. Let's see.

Bob Simon (02:32):
Yeah, let's taste this one out.

Mauro Fiore (02:33):
115. We haven't had anything this spicy on this trip.

Bob Simon (02:36):
That's why we're doing just these pours. But I saved it for this because we're at the tail end of our tour. Joe, to the south.

Joe Wilson (02:44):
To the south. Not the old south.

Bob Simon (02:47):
Not the old south, new south.

(02:54):
Dude, so this one now, you can't even taste that much heat. This one had won I think three of the gold medal things that they give out. This had one Bourbon of the Year for a few different outfits.

Joe Wilson (03:05):
Smooth. I like it.

Bob Simon (03:06):
This one's good.

Joe Wilson (03:06):
It's good.

Bob Simon (03:09):
You taking a peep over there?

Mauro Fiore (03:10):
This was so hard to open then. I had this wax thing over it. I tore it off by the knife.

Bob Simon (03:17):
So of those of you that are watching or listening that don't know Joe, college athlete, law school. Started working for a firm that didn't really work out well.

Joe Wilson (03:30):
Right.

Bob Simon (03:32):
You said, "Fuck this, I'm a trial lawyer, what am I doing?"

Joe Wilson (03:35):
Yeah, exactly. I played basketball growing up, played three years of basketball in college at Jacksonville State University. Everybody always thinks that's in Florida or in Mississippi. I'm like, no, it's actually in Jacksonville, Alabama, in the middle of freaking nowhere.

Bob Simon (03:52):
Were they in the SWAC?

Joe Wilson (03:52):
No, we were in the Ohio Valley Conference when I was playing. I think they're in Atlantic Sun now or something like that.

Bob Simon (03:57):
The OVC?

Joe Wilson (03:58):
Yeah, we were trash. We lost a lot. But it was a good experience. And then went to law school in St. Louis school called Washington University in St. Louis.

Bob Simon (04:08):
Very good, very good law school.

Joe Wilson (04:10):
I don't know how the hell I got in.

Bob Simon (04:11):
Who did you bribe?

Joe Wilson (04:12):
Man, just slide a little hunter under the table. Got it done.

Bob Simon (04:17):
That's an exceptional law school.

Joe Wilson (04:19):
Yeah. I really enjoyed my experience there. I actually really did, great people I met there. And with some of those big law schools, they're always pushing you, "Go to big law, go to big law." And so I said, okay, that's what I'm supposed to do, go work in big law and was doing labor and employment. I did externships in law school, labor and employment. So I said, all right, well I'm kind of tailoring myself to get hired by a big law, labor and employment firm, and so that's what happened. Got hired by this firm called Fisher Phillips here in Atlanta.

Bob Simon (04:50):
Oh, I know Fisher Phillips.

Joe Wilson (04:51):
Very good firm, very good firm. It just was not a fit for me and my personality and what I wanted to do, which was to try cases.

Bob Simon (05:05):
That path would have happened.

Mauro Fiore (05:05):
A lot of employment, I don't do so much anymore. But we should do-

Bob Simon (05:07):
They got sued too many times. Personally, this really...

Mauro Fiore (05:09):
That's what EPL is for.

Joe Wilson (05:09):
Exactly. It's just liability covers. Let them handle it.

Mauro Fiore (05:15):
We used to do a lot of plaintiff employment cases, and Fisher & Phillips was law in the defense a lot.

Joe Wilson (05:20):
Really? They're good lawyers.

Mauro Fiore (05:22):
They would just pay for the cases crazy. They'd file every motion, demur, motion to strike, MSJ. And then at the end of the day, they settled the case with you. But after they've milked it dry.

Bob Simon (05:31):
So we're filming today at Crisp headquarters in Atlanta and they actually put in, you know what Sonic ice is? This is Sonic ice.

Mauro Fiore (05:38):
From the Sonic drivethroughs?

Bob Simon (05:39):
No. It's supposed to be good ice. I do too. They call Sonic different things at different places. It's not Sonic, it's like Checkers. No, is that something else?

Mauro Fiore (05:47):
No, Checkers and Rally's.

Joe Wilson (05:50):
Rally's yeah. Rally's was up in Alabama where I went to college and Checkers is here.

Mauro Fiore (05:54):
It's called Checkers, but it's the same exact restaurant. But Sonic is Sonic everywhere. Sonic is in LA.

Bob Simon (05:59):
That's cool. One of my very good friend is a trial lawyer partner at Fisher Phillips.

Joe Wilson (06:04):
Okay.

Bob Simon (06:05):
Went to undergrad with him in DC. He almost got stabbed once while I was there. It was pretty interesting by one of our friends. He just drunk and tried to stab him for no reason. Wow, just bring back some memories.

Joe Wilson (06:15):
Glad he escaped that one.

Bob Simon (06:18):
He escaped.

Joe Wilson (06:18):
I think we've all been in some situations in college where things could have went left, but thankfully they didn't.

Bob Simon (06:24):
And I still like my memory's coming back, but I just remember laughing so hard. You will stab him. Why will you stab him? Why do you even have a knife to begin with? He's a drunk swimmer tried to stab my buddy, Lonnie. Yeah. So I mean, did you ever think about... When I was in DC and actually have the capital tattooed on my arm.

Joe Wilson (06:40):
I liked that.

Bob Simon (06:42):
Yeah, I always wanted to do something like that as an after-career. But have you ever had thoughts about that? Because I've been seeing a lot of your social media and you're crushing it as a trial lawyer right now and you're very well known for doing that. But you're doing a lot of civil rights stuff.

Joe Wilson (06:54):
And I actually spent a semester in DC in law school. I didn't work on The Hill, I worked for the federal government. But as far as politics or something like that, I thought about it and folks kind of bring it up from time to time. But to be honest with you, I don't want to get anywhere near that. I feel like any person who gets into politics, who actually wants to do the right thing and they're going to try to destroy you if they disagree with the direction you're going in. So I would rather just maybe try to influence from the private sector because it's just a dirty... I mean we know business can be a dirty game as well, but politics is a whole another ball game.

Mauro Fiore (07:40):
There's that old Eddie Murphy movie where he went to be a politician. Do you remember that movie?

Bob Simon (07:44):
What? I don't remember.

Mauro Fiore (07:45):
Eddie Murphy, I think it's called The Distinguished Gentlemen. It's like from the eighties.

Bob Simon (07:48):
I don't remember this one.

Joe Wilson (07:49):
I haven't seen that one.

Mauro Fiore (07:50):
Have you seen it?

Joe Wilson (07:50):
Mm-mm.

Mauro Fiore (07:51):
And Eddie Murphy is like a scam artist and him and his friends are running all these scams. And then he said, Eddie Murphy shows up one day at their clubhouse where they would plant all their stuff. He says, I got the best scam ever. We're going where the streets are paved with gold. And the guys are like, "Where? In Las Vegas?" He goes, "No, Washington." And he goes to Washington and scams his way and into becoming a congressman.

Bob Simon (08:13):
I mean now it's actually become true.

Joe Wilson (08:14):
That is factual.

Mauro Fiore (08:19):
We had some really good movies in the eighties that people... But you should watch-

Bob Simon (08:20):
Trading Places, a lot of good ones. Tell us about your path because working at this, I mean defense firm, they're defending employers mostly, right? That's what Fisher Phillip does.

Joe Wilson (08:29):
That's it.

Bob Simon (08:31):
And when was it just, "Yo, this ain't my thing"?

Joe Wilson (08:34):
Yeah, probably like a year in. So ironically, although this was a labor and employment firm in Atlanta where you have a lot of African-Americans, I was the only Black male lawyer there, the entire firm, at least in the Atlanta office. And working at defense firms, you have to go around and get business from the partners, yet they have to want to give you cases and give you things to work on. Yeah, at least at-

Bob Simon (09:01):
I mean I'm a pure blood. I've never been on the defense.

Joe Wilson (09:04):
At least at some of these larger firms

Mauro Fiore (09:06):
I'm a gold star plaintiff lawyer.

Joe Wilson (09:09):
I wish I would've started earlier on the plaintiff side, but at least at that time, and a lot of these bigger firms, you have to go walk around and build these relationships with these partners or senior associates and hope that they pass something down to you to work on.

(09:22):
That was always a struggle for me to do that. And I just always felt awkward and always kind of felt a little isolated. But I would get work from time to time, but it just never resonated with me to sit in the office all day every day on calls, never taking depositions. In fact, the policy back then, at least at the firm was you can't take a deposition or even defend a deposition until year five.

Bob Simon (09:46):
What?

Joe Wilson (09:47):
Yeah, seriously. At least in the Atlanta office.

Bob Simon (09:50):
Why would you waste lawyer talent like that?

Joe Wilson (09:53):
I don't think they saw me as an up-and-coming trial lawyer. They knew I did it in my trial, but...

Bob Simon (09:59):
That is so unfortunate. We do things opposite. I have a few lawyers that were trying cases while in law school. You identify that unique talent, why not not nurture it?

Joe Wilson (10:10):
But what you were saying is they don't really try cases at Fisher Phillips, so that's not what they valued was trying cases. It was more about, all right, work the file, push the paper, and it wasn't for me. I was not going to be able to do that for the rest of my life. I was going to flame out very quickly. So I said, let's figure out something else. Get the hell out of here.

Bob Simon (10:34):
So where'd you go?

Joe Wilson (10:35):
So actually, while I was still at Fisher Phillips, I was emailing random plaintiff's lawyers, just googling random plaintiff's lawyers, trying to meet with them, trying to get somebody to hire me. Nobody would because I didn't have any PI experience and they didn't want to... On the plaintiff's side, sometimes they don't want to pay to teach you. So they said, "Go to an insurance defense firm." I did that for about six months and then I got hired by a plaintiff's firm and I've been on this side ever since for the last 10 years really.

Bob Simon (11:06):
Wow. And now you're an executive at the GTA, the Georgia Trial Attorneys?

Joe Wilson (11:13):
Yeah, I'm on the executive board there and a few other organizations. I've been working with GTLA for the past 10 years and on the executive committee I think for the last four.

Bob Simon (11:22):
Wow, that's awesome.

Joe Wilson (11:24):
It's been a good experience. They work really hard trying to protect the regular person's civil rights here in Georgia. So, it's a good organization.

Bob Simon (11:33):
Before we were in Atlanta, we were filming in Birmingham and we were talking a lot about just the archaic laws that they have to hold the consumers down. And it's just so hard when you go across, you drive hour, two hours to go to another state where they actually value consumers over corporations. But it's a short drive. Why is it so diverse? I mean, are they trying to attack civil rights for your folks here in Georgia?

Joe Wilson (11:55):
Oh yeah. They're always focused on Georgia because there are a lot of big verdicts that come out of Georgia. There's always a lot of money being pushed here by the insurance industry trying to change the law, which is why GTLA is so important because we have to fight against them every single year, every single term. There's something coming down the pipeline to completely disrupt what we do. The insurance industry is always focused on Georgia for sure.

Mauro Fiore (12:23):
Atlanta does have good verdicts, for sure.

Bob Simon (12:26):
Yeah, but I mean you have common sense folks who understand the value of money and I think Georgia's probably the best state, top five for sure for consumers and law and justice.

Joe Wilson (12:37):
Yeah, I think so too. How's California in that regard?

Bob Simon (12:41):
California is fantastic except for medical malpractice where there's caps which ends up happening. When that happens, the best lawyers end up not, they can't financially represent. So the best lawyers are doing other things and they did it at workers' comp, they destroyed that. So now the best lawyers still in California are trial lawyers that are doing personal injury product liability because they can actually put the risk out there for the reward.

(13:03):
And people don't realize we're spending. I had one case, a product liability case that I put forth a million dollars to get to trial. If you lose, that's out of your pocket, you're done.

Joe Wilson (13:12):
It hurts.

Bob Simon (13:14):
But yeah, that's what people don't understand is to have that quality lawyer so your person has a chance. If you're capping fees, you're capping amounts, it's just they don't get good representation.

Joe Wilson (13:24):
It doesn't make business sense to do.

Mauro Fiore (13:26):
It makes sense for the insurance companies to push that bullshit because then they get inferior lawyers taking on cases. But the consumers don't know that.

Bob Simon (13:34):
They just hear these dirty trial lawyers. Are you ready for the next pour, my friend? Because this is special.

Joe Wilson (13:39):
Hey, I'm going to finish up. Hold on.

Bob Simon (13:39):
Come on, man.

Joe Wilson (13:39):
I was sipping. I was talking.

Bob Simon (13:43):
You're a sipper.

Joe Wilson (13:44):
My bad, come on.

Bob Simon (13:51):
This is a very special, this is the Pappy 23. Alex Shunnarah gave this to us in Alabama. He's here in Georgia and people watch Alex everywhere. Now this is a special one that many people never see, never have. And we're very, very blessed to have-

Mauro Fiore (14:06):
This is the unicorn of Bourbonry.

Bob Simon (14:08):
Yeah, we're blessed to have you on the show. You can drink up because you're going to get this pour. It's going to be quite delicious and nutritious. So when we're honored to have such an esteemed trial lawyer...

Joe Wilson (14:21):
Honored to be here.

Mauro Fiore (14:24):
The first time I ever came to Atlanta, I came to a conference. I came to a Reptile conference here like 15 years ago.

Bob Simon (14:29):
You did?

Joe Wilson (14:30):
Yeah, Don Keenan?

Mauro Fiore (14:32):
With Don Keenan. And Keenan was, I mean I know he is still around. He's very impressive guy.

Joe Wilson (14:37):
Yeah.

Mauro Fiore (14:38):
Great speaker. I liked his...

Bob Simon (14:39):
Didn't sit in the barbershop and just smoked cigars and talk to you? That's kind of his thing.

Mauro Fiore (14:43):
Yeah, I had a great time with him. Rowley was here with me. Rowley and him were buddies.

Bob Simon (14:48):
Well, Joe is now partners with Nick Rowley. They have their firm here in Georgia.

Joe Wilson (14:51):
Yeah.

Bob Simon (14:52):
Trial Lawyers for Justice, and he runs the Atlanta show.

Joe Wilson (14:55):
And I've never met Don Keenan. I've read his book but never had an opportunity to meet him.

Mauro Fiore (15:00):
Him and David Ball. I came down and met with him. It was like a small, it was a trucking conference here in Atlanta.

Bob Simon (15:08):
Hey man, to Georgia always being on our mind. And certainly during the election cycle, don't fuck it up, Georgia.

Mauro Fiore (15:14):
Bob, I want thank you for giving me a beautiful pour of this Pappy 23.

Bob Simon (15:19):
Tell you what man, it's so fucking good.

Mauro Fiore (15:23):
I think just this last right here is about a thousand bucks. Give an idea how much that bottle would cost.

Joe Wilson (15:27):
Holy shit.

Mauro Fiore (15:27):
God bless, Alex Shunnarah.

Bob Simon (15:30):
He gives a bottle every time they have a seven figure plus result. He gives a bottle like this to his team.

Joe Wilson (15:35):
Really?

Bob Simon (15:35):
Yeah.

Joe Wilson (15:37):
I've heard a lot of great things about him. I've never met Alex as well, but from the lawyers that work under him heard a lot of great things.

Bob Simon (15:43):
Well, that's the whole thing. He build culture and he has a great team and he hires great lawyers and he spreads the wealth and keeps everybody happy. And that's what you have to do.

(15:50):
What are you guys trying to build here in Georgia? I know you have a trial academy coming out where you're coaching people six months. Show them how to get in the courtroom, not wait five years to take a fucking deposition. God damned, that actually pisses me off. That's so archaic.

Joe Wilson (16:03):
Yeah, it was ridiculous. I mean, really what we're trying to build obviously within the firm, that culture, we're very collaborative. And the lawyers who are on our team, who are associates at this point have an opportunity to grow as trial lawyers and also grow within the firm itself. But as far as kind widespread, we want to try cases, we want to get great results. We want to help other lawyers even outside of our firm and improve their trial skillset and also collaborate.

(16:36):
One thing that was we wanted to emphasize when we, Nick and I decided to join up because it's very competitive in the PI world. And there can be some, I don't want to say jealousy, but that can come into the frame. We wanted to also let everybody know we're not here to try to take all the business. We want to collaborate with folks as well and team up on things.

Bob Simon (16:59):
That's a lot of work. We've been doing this in California for such a long time, it seems natural. But as we travel, we find law firms try to keep everything in-house and not collaborate. And we're so used to splitting up the pie. Mauro and I have done cases together and split fees. It's more fun.

Mauro Fiore (17:17):
I've done cases with Nick.

Bob Simon (17:18):
Yeah. I've done cases. God, Nick and I happily have one of our biggest settlements together, right?

Mauro Fiore (17:21):
Yeah. We were in Spain or something.

Bob Simon (17:24):
We were in Barcelona and we settled a case. And then next, I almost got stuck. Did you ever hear the story?

Joe Wilson (17:28):
No.

Bob Simon (17:30):
So Nick and I have this case-

Joe Wilson (17:31):
Also, I'm about to be drunk, but go ahead.

Bob Simon (17:32):
Oh dude, this is the part of the show. This is why we like this. Lightweight Joe over here, Glass Joe. We're going to give you a new fucking nickname.

Mauro Fiore (17:40):
I always knocked on Glass Joe.

Bob Simon (17:40):
That's the one guy you could beat a Mike Tyson's Punch Out.

Mauro Fiore (17:42):
Mike Tyson's Punch Out, the first guy who would box his class. You couldn't beat Glass Joe, you had to be the one.

Joe Wilson (17:47):
He just stopped the game.

Mauro Fiore (17:49):
After Glass Joe, they started to-

Joe Wilson (17:51):
Beat the shit out.

Bob Simon (17:52):
My brother, Brad, my twin brother was so good at that game. He probably still remembers. Remember they had a code, the cheat code to go fight Tyson right off the jump and go get there-

Joe Wilson (17:59):
Mike Tyson just beat the crap out of you.

Bob Simon (18:00):
Oh, yeah. But when he blinks, got to hit him. Fuck, man.

Mauro Fiore (18:04):
What were you saying about the Nick Rowley settlement?

Bob Simon (18:06):
Yeah. So me, him and a guy named Miguel Custodio who I love, we're also co-sponsored the LA Kings. He brings us in on this case and there's multiple plaintiffs. We had a severely brain-injured person that she was in Colombia. That happened in California, she's in Colombia. They couldn't get her back to the United States because of visa issues and whatever, massive brain injury. So we felt the best thing to do, and God bless Nick and his teams, they had an in at the best TBI center in Barcelona.

(18:35):
So we had to get her somewhere with Spanish speaking where her family could be there, and there's one in Barcelona. But there's no delay care pay there, so you had to... We fronted a lot of money to get this person the best care possible. There was a lot of coverage on this case, disputed liability, and we were crushing him in these depositions.

(18:55):
And we were there on vacation, but I put out about a week of that because we were going to be in Spain to take some depositions of the family because they were there. So we flew in. The defense lawyer who met with her and had brought in their team of doctors. And then I was going to be there for the depositions and everybody else would be remote.

(19:14):
While we're there, we land. We were there for three weeks before that and my wife was eight months pregnant at the time, and she starts going to contractions. So we're literally going to the hospital to like, "What's going on? Are we going to be able to get back?" They weren't going to clear to fly, so we had to go to Barcelona.

(19:30):
I was just billed that day for depositions but we brought the whole family there. We had to divert our trip. My wife just happened to have an in at Barcelona to got her the best OBGYN and we're just waiting to get cleared to fly back. And they wouldn't clear her because she's having contractions. She's eight months pregnant.

(19:44):
While we're there, I'm supposed to take the depositions the next day. Nick gets the case resolved just for 35 million. I'm sitting there ready to the depositions and he's just like, "Bob, got good news for you." I was like, "What?" He's like, "You don't got to do the depositions." He's like, "But bad news is I'm not flying in anymore." I was like, he's supposed to come and hang out. He's like, "But I know you need to get home too. So I'm still sending the jet."

Joe Wilson (20:05):
Oh, man.

Bob Simon (20:06):
Dude, so this guy, I've never fly private like that before. He lands his jet. Miguel's on the jet, our co-counsel. We do a night in Barcelona. My wife gets cleared from the OBGYN. An hour later, we're on the plane with our other two little girls and got back home. We would've had a Spanish baby if that didn't happen.

Joe Wilson (20:20):
Wow.

Bob Simon (20:20):
Which would've been cool of itself.

Joe Wilson (20:22):
That's a cool story, man.

Bob Simon (20:23):
Yeah.

Joe Wilson (20:23):
That's Nick though. He's a good man. He's just a good-hearted dude, man. Good-hearted dude.

Bob Simon (20:27):
And how you guys are trying a lot of cases together.

Joe Wilson (20:30):
Yeah, we tried our first one together last year. We've got two set for next year and I'm sure we'll try a couple this year together. And I'm getting ready for trial, not with Nick in about three weeks down in south Georgia. So, getting ready for that one.

Bob Simon (20:45):
What we learned last night is this venue does not like plaintiff lawyers and do not like verdicts.

Joe Wilson (20:50):
Yeah, apparently not. But that was a med mal case. So hopefully we have some better luck down there. I mean we should win this case, but who the hell knows?

Bob Simon (21:00):
You never know. And how do you feel about being a Black trial lawyer? Because there is, you go into some venues and it's...

Joe Wilson (21:10):
I'm not going to lie that it's not in the back of my mind, sometimes. In certain places, even the one we tried last year together, it's a-

Bob Simon (21:18):
Fantastic result by the way. I don't know if you know this case.

Joe Wilson (21:22):
It pissed me off.

Bob Simon (21:22):
They pretty much, yeah. I mean, you guys crushed this verdict, but it was like a handshake deal with this guy to try the case and you guys did good on. It was a case that you and I wouldn't have even tried. And they still hit it for over a million bucks and they were still disappointed in themselves. It's like a home run.

Joe Wilson (21:36):
Well we got cheated because there was jury misconduct. It was going to be an eight figure verdict.

Bob Simon (21:44):
On that case?

Joe Wilson (21:44):
We've beaten their ass up.

Bob Simon (21:44):
On that case?

Joe Wilson (21:45):
That's what the juror affidavits that we got back who were saying they were talking eight figures on this case.

Bob Simon (21:53):
By the way, you and I would not even try this case. We were like...

Joe Wilson (21:56):
It was tough and our client was a PI lawyer.

Bob Simon (21:58):
That's it.

Joe Wilson (22:00):
But this venue, it's in Cherokee County. It's historically all white. It's not someplace anybody wants, any plaintiff lawyer wants to go to try a case. So in the back of my mind, I'm like, will they accept me? Will they listen to me? But we had a great jury other than the two folks who cheated us. In closing, I could tell I was connecting with them.

(22:20):
So I mean a lot of that stuff sometimes is in your mind and all you have to do is just thinking about connecting with people. And if you have a good case, you have a good case. So, we'll see.

Bob Simon (22:32):
But you find, because you were the only Black associate at that first firm right here in Atlanta. And obviously, a lot of the population is Black.

Joe Wilson (22:41):
In Atlanta, so that's why it was strange. It's like, really? Labored employment really, and I'm the only one? Seriously.

Bob Simon (22:50):
Do you feel like that's changing now?

Joe Wilson (22:53):
I feel like it was changing, but it's starting to get rolled back with the push against DEI and things of that nature. And I feel like again, we don't have to go down that path.

Bob Simon (23:07):
I saw a term, they had the Baltimore mayor and they said another DEI. And I was like, you're just literally substitute in the word you really want to say. That's what they're really doing.

Joe Wilson (23:18):
Pretty much.

Bob Simon (23:19):
They don't even know what it means. They're just like-

Joe Wilson (23:20):
Exactly. I'm like, he got elected, not hired.

Bob Simon (23:22):
I know.

Mauro Fiore (23:22):
So you know what I've seen a lot of defense firms doing, and I'm sure you guys have seen it too. When you go to trial now, the defense, the lead counsels, all 98% some old white guy. And they always, I think they might go through their whole office and find the only Black lawyer and the only Asian female they have sit at the table with them. And they don't do any witness, they didn't do anything but they like to show, oh these are my associates, they're going to try the case with me. Got a Black and-

Bob Simon (23:55):
And what happens is that-

Mauro Fiore (23:56):
... a female.

Bob Simon (23:57):
It plays against them because jurors know what's going on.

Joe Wilson (24:00):
Stupid.

Bob Simon (24:00):
And we co-try cases and we give opportunities to everybody. So we have those real people not just sitting there asking questions, participating, and jury knows.

Joe Wilson (24:09):
Yeah, I've always thought that as well. I'm like, what are you doing? Do you think these folks in that jury don't see through this? It's all Black jury. I've seen it in Clayton County here in Georgia where the jury's going to be all Black or DeKalb County where it's going to be 75% Black. And you don't have those Black lawyers or associates doing anything on the case, they know exactly what you're doing.

Mauro Fiore (24:31):
Just to show, oh yeah, we have Black lawyers.

Bob Simon (24:34):
And I heard one guy that, I heard the story where even though she was a lawyer, the attorney would tell everybody that she was a law clerk. So they didn't feel like...

Joe Wilson (24:42):
Oh, God.

Bob Simon (24:42):
Yeah. Even worse.

Mauro Fiore (24:46):
I heard the story. Yeah, because she was a lawyer but he told everyone she was a paralegal because his thought was if they knew she was a lawyer, they would wonder why she didn't do any part of the trial.

Joe Wilson (24:54):
That's pretty sick.

Mauro Fiore (24:57):
Yeah, really.

Bob Simon (24:58):
But this still goes on. It goes on today. It's crazy.

Joe Wilson (25:00):
The good thing is though, I think that generation of folks who think like that, over time, they're phasing out of the profession. And then the folks who are more inclusive and just want to be inclusive and have equity and want to give everybody opportunities, they're starting to lead the way, folks like you guys. So I think that's important. I think that's the positive thing.

Bob Simon (25:22):
Man, that's awesome. Well let's talk a little bit about...

Mauro Fiore (25:25):
Well, Bob, I can't be accused of not being inclusive as I was thinking right now I have eight lawyers-

Bob Simon (25:32):
Most of your firm is women.

Mauro Fiore (25:32):
Six of them are females, six female Latinas. I'm cornering the market on female Latina lawyers. So I have six female Latina lawyers and one white female lawyer. Most of them, they're all girls in one office except one Mexican lawyer.

Bob Simon (25:50):
Gilbert.

Mauro Fiore (25:50):
Gilbert. But the rest of them were all female in my office and it wasn't on purpose.

Bob Simon (25:54):
They're awesome.

Mauro Fiore (25:55):
But I don't know. It just ended up with an all-female firm.

Bob Simon (25:57):
We just hired three new associates, they were all female. The past week, they would say stood out there and that's what the real DEI is just opportunity, just give me some of the opportunity to at least interview and have a chance. And a lot of people... First-generation lawyer?

Joe Wilson (26:09):
Yeah.

Bob Simon (26:09):
First-generation lawyer, first-generation lawyer. If nobody gave us an opportunity, we wouldn't be here.

Joe Wilson (26:13):
Exactly.

Bob Simon (26:14):
That's all that it is.

Joe Wilson (26:14):
It really is all it is. But folks like to twist that term and it's a long game.

Bob Simon (26:22):
I like my guilty pleasures going on The Daily Wire and trolling, Ben Shapiro. It's my favorite thing to do. Just once a day, I do just from my own personal satisfaction.

Mauro Fiore (26:32):
I like to troll [inaudible 00:26:32].

Bob Simon (26:32):
She's going to be on the show soon. He had went up there and he was like, "Nobody wants a DEI hire to operate on them. How dare medical schools like let these people in?" I comment, I was like, "Well, they let them in but you still need to pass the medical board. You still need to do all these things. So maybe they got in for an opportunity, maybe they failed out. Maybe they're top of the class." And it gets people so angry. What are you talking about? You don't just hire. So, whatever, it's just...

Joe Wilson (27:02):
Critical thinking has gone out the window. It's just whatever. I don't know, it's nonsense. But yeah.

Bob Simon (27:10):
How close are you to finishing yours? I know you're sipping this one because it's so good, because we do three pours here, Joe. And I usually do it at the end of the episode because we're going to keep talking, but I feel like we need to do one more pour and I think you have to pick it. What was your poison of choice growing up, by the way? What's your usual? What do you usually drink?

Mauro Fiore (27:28):
Seems like spring water.

Joe Wilson (27:30):
So in college, because I don't drink that much now. But in college and law school, I drank for a purpose. I drank to get wasted.

Bob Simon (27:39):
To get drunk, yeah.

Joe Wilson (27:40):
But it wasn't for taste at all. It was just for a clear purpose. And then 25, 26, 27, I slowed it down. But now I would say I drink like I'll sip Crown apple, which is probably-

Bob Simon (27:52):
Oh yeah, last night I saw you.

Joe Wilson (27:53):
Cheap ass. It's a cheap treat. I like the way it tastes.

Mauro Fiore (27:57):
Trial lawyer in Los Angeles only drinks Crown. He's a friend of ours. This guy's got more money than Bob.

Bob Simon (28:03):
Yeah, he does.

Mauro Fiore (28:03):
If you go to his house, you've been to his house.

Bob Simon (28:05):
Many times.

Mauro Fiore (28:06):
Last time I was there, I think he had like... I don't know if he's waiting for the Ice Age or whatever, he must have 50 bottles of Crown.

Bob Simon (28:12):
50. And he had one giant, he had the giant bottles.

Mauro Fiore (28:15):
Dude, it's like how much Crown can you drink, man?

Bob Simon (28:16):
He also has over 2,000 signed guitars hung over his house.

Joe Wilson (28:21):
Holy shit.

Bob Simon (28:22):
They gave one that's like the one Kiss smashed on stage, one of the Beatles played.

Mauro Fiore (28:30):
And he doesn't play the guitar. Ricardo Echeverria.

Bob Simon (28:30):
Yeah, Ricardo.

Joe Wilson (28:30):
California is just different. Y'all are different out there. That's how we look at you guys. Y'all are just...

Bob Simon (28:34):
We are pretty different, man.

Mauro Fiore (28:36):
I'm born and raised in Los Angeles, so I have no excuse. I'm just, I'm LA because that's where I'm born and raised there. Bob has come in that's most of the Midwestern and they hijacked the town.

Bob Simon (28:51):
We go to the beach towns and hijacked-

Joe Wilson (28:52):
Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh, right?

Bob Simon (28:54):
Yeah.

Mauro Fiore (28:54):
I was saying the other day, if you go to any beach town in LA, 50% of the people are from Iowa, Pennsylvania or Ohio. They just go there and they take over.

Bob Simon (29:04):
Illinois.

Joe Wilson (29:04):
Really?

Mauro Fiore (29:05):
Manhattan Beach-

Joe Wilson (29:05):
It's kind of like Atlanta too.

Mauro Fiore (29:06):
...is all people from the Midwest.

Joe Wilson (29:08):
Really?

Bob Simon (29:09):
Yep. I still have the Pittsburgh Bridge. I have a lot of Pittsburgh white trash tattoos. I have justice right here. That's the Steelers symbol. Look at that. I have a Pittsburgh Pirate P back there, sure enough.

Joe Wilson (29:18):
I like the Steelers.

Bob Simon (29:20):
Who doesn't?

Joe Wilson (29:21):
I love y'all's coach. He's my fraternity brother.

Bob Simon (29:23):
What? He went to William & Mary, undergrad, yeah. He's just-

Joe Wilson (29:30):
I like the Steelers just because of Tom.

Bob Simon (29:32):
Tom is a great... He's the best player coach. They got to get better, whatever. We're not going to do sports talk this way. So we do this towards the end. But I'll do it right now. You got to pick your bourbon of proof because we're doing one pour and you get to pick, Joe Wilson, not us this time. Which one do we get to have another sip of?

Joe Wilson (29:47):
They're both. I see four of them now. No, I'm just kidding. I like the last one we just had.

Bob Simon (29:53):
Yeah, you got to pick the Pappy, man. Come on. So we did bourbon. We'll thank Alex because... A few seven-figure results you had this year, so you earned it.

Joe Wilson (30:06):
Let's get it. Let's get it.

Bob Simon (30:07):
So what are you excited? So we're going to go back to you as a human being. I know you're a dad, that's important to you, right?

Joe Wilson (30:13):
Yeah, it is.

Bob Simon (30:14):
So tell us about how it is balancing you as a human being and being this civil rights trial lawyer doing change in the courtroom.

Joe Wilson (30:22):
Yeah, it's a tough balance that I try to work on a regular basis. My wife stays at home for now. We've got three boys, but just always trying to balance.

Bob Simon (30:35):
I got three girls. Can we do like a-

Joe Wilson (30:38):
Three girls?

Bob Simon (30:39):
Yeah, we can do-

Mauro Fiore (30:40):
Boys, man. God bless you, man.

Bob Simon (30:40):
We could do an empire marriage thing.

Mauro Fiore (30:42):
I have one boy, two girls.

Joe Wilson (30:43):
Really?

Mauro Fiore (30:44):
We got the one boy.

Bob Simon (30:46):
I love my girls, but now I get to pick who they marry, right?

Joe Wilson (30:50):
Absolutely.

Mauro Fiore (30:51):
It was like, what's his name we're seeing yesterday, Alex Shunnarah. He was saying...

Bob Simon (30:55):
He's got three girls.

Mauro Fiore (30:58):
"I have three girls." And he says, man, he goes, "I think if I had a boy, I could be tough on him." But he says, "My girls, and they just look at me and I melt. It's like my daughter looks at me, my daughter's look at me, what can I say?"

Joe Wilson (31:11):
Yeah, it's tough.

Mauro Fiore (31:12):
"They can't do no wrong. But my boy, I'm hard on," so I get it. But your girls, you just melt for your girls.

Bob Simon (31:17):
Yep. Anything they want.

Joe Wilson (31:19):
Absolutely. And so yes-

Bob Simon (31:21):
How old are your boys?

Joe Wilson (31:22):
So my youngest just turned two. Middle child will be four in July, and then my oldest will be six the end of June.

Mauro Fiore (31:30):
So you're right in the-

Bob Simon (31:31):
We have the same mark, about the same age where all of our kids are the best.

Joe Wilson (31:34):
So it's a lot of fun, a lot of play fighting and wrestling and all that stuff, so it is a lot of fun. But just trying to balance the work aspect and also making sure I'm there to go to soccer.

Bob Simon (31:46):
Because you also own your firm, you're doing the business side of things. You're trying the cases sometimes gone for weeks at a time. And you got little kids, you're probably Coach Joe too.

Joe Wilson (31:56):
Yep. I'm all of those things. And also just, I'm obviously married as well, just trying to make sure she understands why I have to spend so much time, and she's very understanding. But it's a daily thing making sure we're communicating because that's a balance.

Mauro Fiore (32:11):
Made her understanding.

Joe Wilson (32:13):
Yes. It's tough.

Bob Simon (32:14):
My wife understands, but our wives were together last night with our good friend. Gary Dordick's wife had a birthday party and our wives were there. And I think it's important for the spouses in the industry to get together because-

Joe Wilson (32:28):
I need to do a better job about that. That's a good point.

Bob Simon (32:31):
Yeah. You should get intertwined because-

Joe Wilson (32:33):
That's a good point.

Mauro Fiore (32:34):
You got to come on vacation with us.

Joe Wilson (32:35):
That's a great point.

Bob Simon (32:36):
That's what you have do.

Joe Wilson (32:36):
I never thought about that.

Mauro Fiore (32:36):
Go to Cabo with us.

Bob Simon (32:38):
He was in Cabo last time with us, but he didn't bring his wife.

Mauro Fiore (32:41):
Come to Cabo, come with us next in May and we'll all hang up.

Joe Wilson (32:44):
That's a great point.

Bob Simon (32:46):
But it is very important for your partner or spouse to, because they got to be understanding because at times, we're very stressed and you're in the moment, you're in trial.

Joe Wilson (32:56):
That's for sure.

Bob Simon (32:57):
Especially if you're with Trial Lawyers for Justice, you're going to be all over the country sometimes.

Joe Wilson (33:02):
Yeah, sometimes. So no, that's something to think about. I didn't think about it that way. It's like making sure she is meeting other trial lawyers' wives who are kind of dealing with the same lifestyle. Courtney's a little different because she's also involved in trying cases.

Bob Simon (33:19):
Our wives, they're best friends and we travel a lot together. All my best friends are lawyers.

Joe Wilson (33:24):
Really?

Bob Simon (33:25):
Yeah, all of them. Yeah.

Joe Wilson (33:26):
Okay.

Bob Simon (33:27):
But my brothers are lawyers too now. My dad's an old truck driver. Everybody always asks, "We should call you Bob?" I'm like, "Yeah, call me Bob. But just remember when you ask for the firm, ask for Robert because my dad's name is Bob and he's Big Bob." And he's been doing this joke since he was, he thinks it's the funniest shit in the world.

(33:43):
So people used to call my house and they would say, "Is Bob there? Is Bobby there?" And my dad would answer. He's like, "Do you want Big Bob or Little Bob?" And they were like, "Little Bob, I guess." And he's like, "You know why they call him Little Bob?" "Give me a phone, dad. I'm not doing this shit."

(33:56):
He still does this joke at the firm. He thinks he's hilarious. I got a 70-year-old, almost 70-year-old man playing tricks.

Joe Wilson (34:02):
I love it, man.

Bob Simon (34:03):
Yeah, he's funny.

Mauro Fiore (34:04):
What's that over there?

Joe Wilson (34:07):
I knew he was going to-

Bob Simon (34:07):
This motherfucker.

Joe Wilson (34:08):
I knew he's going to do some shit like that. We met for the first time yesterday and I should have expected that shit.

Bob Simon (34:16):
Look at this guy. Just the color of this different.

Joe Wilson (34:19):
It's good. I like this.

Bob Simon (34:20):
Apologize in advance.

Mauro Fiore (34:23):
Apologize in advance for my indiscretion.

Bob Simon (34:27):
We just got to get him on a plane in a few hours.

Mauro Fiore (34:30):
We have one more show today.

Bob Simon (34:30):
We have one more show and he's going to get a plane.

Joe Wilson (34:32):
Not bad.

Mauro Fiore (34:32):
That sandwich.

Bob Simon (34:35):
Man. Well yeah, Joe. So what do you think, advice for our listeners, if you want to get to where you are today, if you had to do things a little differently, what would they have been?

Joe Wilson (34:48):
I think if I could do things differently, I wish I would've been a bit more focused at my first job and really trying to do my best. If I'm honest with you, I hated it there so I didn't give my best. So, I regret that.

Bob Simon (35:03):
But if you gave your best, you might still be there.

Joe Wilson (35:05):
I don't think I would've, I knew it was not right for me. But I think just from a developmental standpoint, even though it's labor and employment, I could have gotten more out of that experience than I did. Even if you're in a position where you know this isn't for you, you don't like it, you don't like the people, whatever it may be, you should still give 100% to get everything you can out of that opportunity because it's going to help you moving forward. So that will be, I guess my only regret.

Mauro Fiore (35:38):
You like invented quiet quitting.

Joe Wilson (35:38):
I did quiet quit. I'm not going to lie to you. I was tapped out, but I was like this is not it. I like the money, but this isn't it for me.

Bob Simon (35:51):
But that's where they try to get you, those golden handcuffs. They give you nice little salary, make little comfortable.

Joe Wilson (35:55):
Love making 120, yeah. Yeah, baby, I got me a little Audi A5. I felt like I was the guy.

Mauro Fiore (36:02):
Yeah. I read something the other day that said that being comfortable is where dreams go to die.

Bob Simon (36:08):
Ooh, I like that.

Mauro Fiore (36:09):
And it really is.

Joe Wilson (36:10):
It's true. It's true.

Mauro Fiore (36:12):
Luckily for me, I never was comfortable. Every firm I worked at, the Fed's knocking on the door.

Bob Simon (36:21):
Including his own.

Mauro Fiore (36:21):
And the Fed's knocking on the door. I remember one time, I was working at a firm. The Fed's raided the place, tried to PI for it. My paralegal-

Joe Wilson (36:30):
Excuse me.

Mauro Fiore (36:31):
My paralegal had two boxes of files that was, "This is paper files, right?" My paralegal had two boxes of files that cases he referred to the firm. He's like, "These motherfuckers are going to get my files." He had two boxes of files like this. He ran for it, and I was right behind.

(36:47):
He dropped one box, okay? He dropped a box of files and he didn't turn back for it. I scooped it up.

Bob Simon (36:55):
And that's how he started his firm.

Mauro Fiore (36:58):
And I hadn't heard from the paralegal again. Then I heard-

Joe Wilson (37:01):
Oh my God. It's a real story.

Mauro Fiore (37:02):
Hey, there's been a change in your case, you got a new lawyer. Who's that? Me.

Joe Wilson (37:09):
Your other lawyers are in jail, federal prison.

Mauro Fiore (37:11):
Oh, really? Oh wow. That's great. Yeah, there was about 15 files in there. There were 15-

Joe Wilson (37:17):
Got you started.

Mauro Fiore (37:17):
Yeah, I got him out of the hallway. He went up through the roof. He wasn't messing around. This guy, he was climbing ladders with his best files. He dropped his B files. The A files, he didn't drop it.

Joe Wilson (37:30):
He's crazy as hell.

Mauro Fiore (37:31):
Statutes of limitation is a strength.

Joe Wilson (37:31):
It's over with, man.

Mauro Fiore (37:31):
23 years ago.

Bob Simon (37:31):
Oh, my God.

Joe Wilson (37:31):
They're just cases too.

Bob Simon (37:40):
Just when you think he's joking, it's not.

Mauro Fiore (37:45):
No, I'm not joking. I'm not.

Bob Simon (37:46):
That was just the first time where I've heard about it.

Mauro Fiore (37:46):
The first raid.

Bob Simon (37:47):
Yeah. There's another story off camera. He'll tell about another raid, which I've heard. It's just that's my ab work. I don't do a lot of crunches. I just listen to Mauro, I laughed so hard today.

Joe Wilson (37:58):
I see. I got my work out of you for today. Thank you, sir.

Bob Simon (37:59):
Joe Wilson, thank you for coming on brother. Thank you for enlightening us on your journey. Always appreciate you brother. And thank you for letting us open this bottle of Pappy and have Mauro share stupid stories.

Joe Wilson (38:09):
I'm taking that with me. Sorry guys.

Bob Simon (38:12):
Over your dead body.