Sara Williams

Sara Williams (00:00:00):
So I went to law school because I loved to read, majored in English Lit but didn't like kids a lot. My teachers were like, "Man, I guess there's law school." And I was at a stage like I'm a first generation lawyer, my parents are both blue collar and so I didn't have-

Bob Simon (00:00:17):
[inaudible 00:00:18], all of us then.

Mauro Fiore (00:00:18):
Yeah, [inaudible 00:00:20].

Sara Williams (00:00:18):
Look at us. We made it.

Bob Simon (00:00:18):
We made it.

Sara Williams (00:00:22):
I didn't have the guidance so I was just like, "Someone tell me what I should do." And so it was like, "You should go to law school." So I went to law school and I ended up at Cumberland. But I think when you can overcome those things, when you can overcome your fear, that is when you truly can master... If you let fear, right? If you let fear rule every decision that you make, you won't do it.

Bob Simon (00:01:07):
Welcome to this episode of Bourbon of Proof where we'd like to share spirits with those who have been successful at law and life. And today, we are so blessed to have from Alabama flying to do a show with us, the Sara Williams.

Sara Williams (00:01:23):
Thank you for having me.

Bob Simon (00:01:24):
And we also have our illustrious, notorious Mauro Fiore.

Mauro Fiore (00:01:29):
Hat in hand as usual.

Bob Simon (00:01:31):
Hat in hand. This fucking guy. Those tattoos are henna. I think these are-

Mauro Fiore (00:01:34):
Yeah, these are fake. You scrub real hard and they come off.

Bob Simon (00:01:38):
And thank you to Bike Shed, Charles Li and Tom Hardy for giving us this location downtown Los Angeles in Arts District. Well, we're going to start with something nice for you because I bought some very... So this one is the Uncle Nearest rye, which is a Nashville. This is the rye. So this is a 10-proof. Another bottled and Bon. So it was somebody green that was the... Taught Jack Daniels actually how to make whiskey way back in the day.

Sara Williams (00:02:11):
Way back in the day. He didn't get credit until December.

Mauro Fiore (00:02:13):
That was Uncle Nearest, right?

Sara Williams (00:02:14):
Uncle Nearest.

Bob Simon (00:02:15):
Uncle Nearest was the one that taught him. And now this is the first Black female distiller-

Mauro Fiore (00:02:21):
Female? Black female?

Bob Simon (00:02:22):
Yeah. Victoria Butler is Uncle Nearest the CEO.

Sara Williams (00:02:25):
Oh yeah, I've heard that story.

Bob Simon (00:02:26):
Fawn, I forget her last name. Do you know [inaudible 00:02:29]?

Sara Williams (00:02:26):
Fawn Weaver?

Bob Simon (00:02:29):
Fawn Weaver.

Sara Williams (00:02:30):
Walker? Fawn Weaver.

Bob Simon (00:02:31):
Look, we're just testing you. I was going to say Dreamweaver, but that was more Mauro's genre. But yeah, right here it says Victoria. She goes by, Vic Eddy Butler, signed. Female distillers are very few. Female distillers, let alone Black. She's the only one. First one.

Sara Williams (00:02:45):
First one.

Bob Simon (00:02:45):
First one.

Sara Williams (00:02:46):
There's another who's now in Birmingham, [inaudible 00:02:49]-

Mauro Fiore (00:02:49):
If it's Uncle Nearest, this is in-

Bob Simon (00:02:51):
Nashville.

Mauro Fiore (00:02:51):
Is from Nashville.

Bob Simon (00:02:51):
Outside Nashville.

Mauro Fiore (00:02:52):
It's from Tennessee.

Bob Simon (00:02:53):
Tennessee.

Sara Williams (00:02:53):
Yeah.

Mauro Fiore (00:02:54):
Tennessee whiskey ain't bad.

Bob Simon (00:02:55):
Elizabeth Pritchard does Horse Soldier, but she's a white chick so she don't count on that one. But very, very few. I'm a big rye guy, so let's see.

Sara Williams (00:03:08):
I love rye. How did you know? Look at us.

Mauro Fiore (00:03:11):
Uncle Nearest.

Bob Simon (00:03:11):
Here we are.

Mauro Fiore (00:03:13):
I read some good reviews-

Sara Williams (00:03:14):
Oh, look. Anxious.

Mauro Fiore (00:03:15):
I've read good reviews. I've never had it.

Bob Simon (00:03:17):
So I always go, when I go through Nashville, you can actually buy this at the airport. They let you take it on the plane. Did you know that?

Sara Williams (00:03:22):
Do they?

Mauro Fiore (00:03:22):
And then, if you beacon it on the plane?

Bob Simon (00:03:24):
They'll let you. They actually have a sign that says, "You can drink this on the plane."

Mauro Fiore (00:03:27):
Really? God bless you. I got to go to Nashville more often.

Sara Williams (00:03:32):
That's good.

Bob Simon (00:03:33):
Oh this is fantastic.

Sara Williams (00:03:34):
That's really good.

Bob Simon (00:03:36):
See, I find when I drink whiskey that's made by female distillers, they have a better nose.

Mauro Fiore (00:03:40):
This has a, I was going to say, a little bit of cinnamon.

Sara Williams (00:03:43):
Right. It's a little sweet.

Bob Simon (00:03:44):
He's just making shit up.

Sara Williams (00:03:45):
Which is what I like about-

Mauro Fiore (00:03:46):
A little bit of cinnamon, a little bit of sugar cane, I smell.

Sara Williams (00:03:49):
Rice.

Mauro Fiore (00:03:50):
Rice. I like rice because they're heavier alcohol usually, but they're sweeter.

Sara Williams (00:03:56):
That's exactly why [inaudible 00:03:58].

Bob Simon (00:03:57):
That's why I like Mauro. He's heavier but sweeter.

Sara Williams (00:03:59):
Bobs like my [inaudible 00:04:00].

Mauro Fiore (00:04:00):
Very heavy. Extremely heavy at times.

Sara Williams (00:04:05):
I feel you on that.

Bob Simon (00:04:06):
So for those of you that do not know, Sara practices both at Florida and Alabama. But you do other states too, right?

Sara Williams (00:04:14):
My primary practice is in Alabama. But-

Bob Simon (00:04:17):
You try cases-

Sara Williams (00:04:18):
... our firm at this point is all over the place. So my practice focuses on the Southeast.

Bob Simon (00:04:24):
Yeah.

Mauro Fiore (00:04:26):
Like Florida, Georgia line, like [inaudible 00:04:28].

Sara Williams (00:04:27):
Florida, Georgia, Tennessee.

Mauro Fiore (00:04:29):
Have you ever been to Florida, Georgia line up there, Bob, you ever been up in that area?

Bob Simon (00:04:32):
Is that the world's largest cocktail party where they used to do the Florida Georgia game or something like this, on the line?

Mauro Fiore (00:04:38):
But you got to like mosquitoes and humidity. Now you're [inaudible 00:04:40].

Bob Simon (00:04:40):
I like them either.

Sara Williams (00:04:41):
No one likes them, you just have to drink enough bourbon to forget about the mosquitoes.

Bob Simon (00:04:45):
But Sara, I mean look her up if you're watching or listening because she's hit some monster verdicts. And also, you give back a shit ton. You teach.

Sara Williams (00:04:55):
I do.

Bob Simon (00:04:56):
Professor of law.

Sara Williams (00:04:57):
I teach. I coach. I just took over as a visiting director of advocacy at Cumberland School of Law in Birmingham.

Bob Simon (00:05:06):
Nice.

Sara Williams (00:05:07):
So I am overseeing all of our advocacy programs. We're number fourth in the nation.

Bob Simon (00:05:14):
I'll take number one.

Mauro Fiore (00:05:14):
Did you know that I'm available as a visiting professor?

Sara Williams (00:05:15):
Oh, what would you teach?

Mauro Fiore (00:05:17):
Many things. I would teach many things.

Sara Williams (00:05:22):
I feel like that's an off camera discussion.

Mauro Fiore (00:05:24):
Yes, I'm what they call a teacher of law and life. I'm ready. I'm [inaudible 00:05:34].

Sara Williams (00:05:33):
Send me a post syllabus.

Mauro Fiore (00:05:34):
I'm going to send you my CV.

Bob Simon (00:05:36):
It'll be in barbecue sauce on a napkin. That stuff will send you a CV.

Sara Williams (00:05:40):
All the three Ls will sign up for.

Bob Simon (00:05:46):
Because now you do a lot of injuries to consumers, catastrophic injury cases. Did you start on this path? Everybody on the show wants to find out. How did you become who you are?

Sara Williams (00:05:57):
So I went to law school because I loved to read, majored in English lit but didn't like kids a lot. I wasn't going to teach.

Bob Simon (00:06:08):
Open door number one.

Sara Williams (00:06:09):
And so my teachers were like, "I mean, I guess there was law school." And I was at a stage, I'm a first generation lawyer. My parents are both blue collar and so I didn't have-

Bob Simon (00:06:19):
[inaudible 00:06:20] all of us then.

Sara Williams (00:06:20):
Yeah, [inaudible 00:06:21].

(00:06:20):
Look at us. We made it.

Bob Simon (00:06:20):
We made it.

Sara Williams (00:06:24):
I didn't have the guidance so I was just like, "Someone tell me what I should do." And so it was like, "You should go to law school." So I went to law school and I ended up at Cumberland.

Bob Simon (00:06:33):
This is fantastic. The second part, he already chugged his.

Mauro Fiore (00:06:38):
It has a very nice finish.

Bob Simon (00:06:39):
Yes it does.

Mauro Fiore (00:06:40):
Smooth finish.

Sara Williams (00:06:44):
But I feel like you have to pace yourself.

Bob Simon (00:06:48):
Depends on where you're going. The hare wins most of the races over the tortoise, this is true. But we are going back-

Sara Williams (00:06:56):
So I went to law school to be a corporate lawyer.

Bob Simon (00:06:59):
You're the only English major I know that's a lawyer.

Sara Williams (00:07:03):
Am I?

Bob Simon (00:07:04):
Because that's a harder major, legit. If anybody's in college right now, don't do English. It's a harder-

Sara Williams (00:07:09):
Unless you want to teach the children.

Bob Simon (00:07:11):
The children.

Sara Williams (00:07:11):
And having a 10-year-old, good teachers are important, was not my ministry. I love my child. It's funny though, I ended up teaching. But I went to law school to do corporate law because I'm an introvert. I'm-

Bob Simon (00:07:27):
You are an introvert? Get the fuck-

Mauro Fiore (00:07:31):
Me too.

Bob Simon (00:07:31):
No, you're not.

Mauro Fiore (00:07:31):
Yeah, I'm [inaudible 00:07:32].

Sara Williams (00:07:32):
I'm absolutely an introvert. I tell my students all the time, anyone can be a good trial lawyer if you are trained to do well. But I have to overcome... Even walking in here, my friend Melissa who's with me, I was like, "I'm so nervous." And I get real-

Bob Simon (00:07:50):
You do not get nervous.

Sara Williams (00:07:53):
I do, I do. I do. I'm an introvert. I'm shy. I don't-

Bob Simon (00:07:56):
I mean, how do you walk into the court or walk into the classroom...? I actually think the classroom would be more intimidating for me than the courtroom. But how do you walk in there with having that fear?

Sara Williams (00:08:10):
Because I think in order to be successful with what we do as trial lawyers, you have to overcome that fear. Don't you have that fear every single time you stand in front of a jury? Is my client's story going to resonate with them? I tried a case with a lady who had an amputated leg and I will never forget jurors snickering at her as she limped up to be introduced to the panel and I got the pit of fear in my stomach. I was like, "These folks are not going to feel us." And we turned it around. But I think there's always fear and so you just have to work through that. So I just swallow it and keep going because otherwise I wouldn't do shit. If you let fear rule every decision that you make, you won't do anything.

Bob Simon (00:09:08):
I think if you don't have fear, you're not being challenged.

Sara Williams (00:09:11):
Right.

Mauro Fiore (00:09:11):
Yeah.

Bob Simon (00:09:12):
I mean, I love fear. I thrive off of stress and fear. But it's the fear of failure but not your failure, the failure for your client.

Sara Williams (00:09:22):
Right. Because that's their only case.

Bob Simon (00:09:24):
Certain times.

Sara Williams (00:09:24):
You have others, right? And fear of just not measuring up. But I think when you can overcome those things, when you can overcome your fear, that is when you truly can master being a great [inaudible 00:09:39].

Bob Simon (00:09:38):
When you're in the courtroom, where do you start to feel at ease and peace? I think all of us, when the jury walks in the room, I feel it. I feel that pit in the stomach, that fear, the stress, what's going to happen? When does it stop for you?

Sara Williams (00:09:55):
I think for me, when I first stand in the well and make contact with the jurors. Because here's what I know, people like me. Look, I'm a relatable person and all I need to do-

Bob Simon (00:10:09):
As soon as I see you-

Sara Williams (00:10:10):
... is able to make that contact.

Bob Simon (00:10:11):
Exactly. Are you the same, Mauro?

Mauro Fiore (00:10:14):
Yeah. I mean I get up, I'm nervous and then I get up and voir dire.

Bob Simon (00:10:21):
I can't say that word. I am not going to lie.

Mauro Fiore (00:10:21):
Jury selection.

Sara Williams (00:10:21):
Well, Alabama is-

Mauro Fiore (00:10:21):
Voir dire.

Sara Williams (00:10:21):
Voir dire.

Mauro Fiore (00:10:21):
Voir dire. As soon as I stand up, as soon as [inaudible 00:10:26]-

Bob Simon (00:10:25):
I just call it the VD.

Mauro Fiore (00:10:26):
As soon as I stand-

Bob Simon (00:10:28):
Then, offers me penicillin. It's real awkward.

Mauro Fiore (00:10:32):
Definitely, you need penicillin [inaudible 00:10:34]. You need to take Cipro for that.

Bob Simon (00:10:37):
Cifpro.

Mauro Fiore (00:10:38):
Cipro

Sara Williams (00:10:38):
Sounds like a-

Mauro Fiore (00:10:39):
Very powerful antibiotic.

Sara Williams (00:10:40):
Personal experience.

Mauro Fiore (00:10:40):
I'll get you some next... Next time I'm in Kaball I'll bring you a bottle. That way you have it on-

Sara Williams (00:10:48):
And just have it on deck.

Mauro Fiore (00:10:49):
You have it on standby. But as soon as I stand up for a jury selection and I start talking to the jurors and I start trying to make them feel comfortable, I crack a few jokes. Some of them go over like a lead balloon, but some of them fly. I start feeling comfortable and I can freestyle a little bit. And once I can be myself, once you can show the jury your personality a little bit. Like Bob always says, "Mauro's a very affable guy. He can go to try case." And I try to relate to the jurors and try to loosen them up. And then hopefully, which is most of the time, you have a defense lawyer who's the opposite and it's such a contract.

Bob Simon (00:11:33):
Most times it is.

Mauro Fiore (00:11:34):
But sometimes you got good defense lawyers. You know what? They know what-

Sara Williams (00:11:37):
You know what? I don't even care. I don't care how good the defense lawyers. I believe that there is... I can only beat myself.

Bob Simon (00:11:46):
Yeah, you're in competition [inaudible 00:11:48].

Sara Williams (00:11:47):
Yeah. I don't care how they show up. For me, it's like I think when you show up as yourself and authentically, and the jury sees that you're not some weirdo or something like what they've seen on TV, you can see them breathe a collective sigh of relief. And then, that's when I breathe the sigh of relief.

Bob Simon (00:12:03):
Do you have an icebreaker with the jury? I never asked you this, I don't think, but where do you start when you... First time, first impression? You get up, all of us, when I see you, I smile. When I see him, I smile. When I see your website, sarawilliams.com. I smile. If you just see, you smile, but what's your icebreaking...? Do you do that when you get up?

Sara Williams (00:12:25):
So it depends. I try to try my cases in the moment and not have a standard, "This is what I ..." Because I think people can sense that. I think juries are like bloodhounds. I think they can sniff fakes with... I think that they're the best at it.

Bob Simon (00:12:42):
I do a right [inaudible 00:12:42] thing that does the bloodhounds.

Sara Williams (00:12:42):
Yeah. And this is why I tell my students, some stupid shit is going to happen while you're trying to case.

Bob Simon (00:12:50):
Exactly.

Sara Williams (00:12:51):
Some juror's not going to show up. It's going to be somebody's birthday. There's something is going to happen that gives you the opportunity to connect with the jury.

Mauro Fiore (00:13:02):
The judge is going to tell some stupid jokes.

Sara Williams (00:13:03):
Right. And you're going to be-

Bob Simon (00:13:04):
Always. Like, "What the fuck?"

Sara Williams (00:13:04):
And so-

Bob Simon (00:13:04):
"Shut your mouth."

Sara Williams (00:13:06):
Sometimes it's body language, that's your first connection with the jury. And so I am constantly looking for what has happened that someone in the panel has reacted to that allows me to connect with either that person. That's exactly right. And so-

Bob Simon (00:13:21):
Do you have somebody watch the jury with you while you do this?

Sara Williams (00:13:25):
Yes.

Bob Simon (00:13:25):
Oh, I do-

Sara Williams (00:13:26):
But here's the thing, y'all may not be the same way. You don't trust anyone's instincts like your own.

Bob Simon (00:13:31):
No.

Sara Williams (00:13:32):
Right?

Bob Simon (00:13:32):
So I think I always have jury consultants or a second set of eyes for that purpose, to have a fact check or am I crazy for thinking this?

Sara Williams (00:13:40):
Right.

Bob Simon (00:13:41):
But I always start with, "We heard a lot of people that want to serve for whatever reason. His honor, her honor said X, Y, Z. You said you had somewhere else to be. Who here is really excited and wants to be on this jury?" Show of hands." And there's always one or two and everybody laughs. "Why would you like to serve?" And it's always somebody that's good for us, because they're passionate about the civil service.

Sara Williams (00:14:04):
That's California though.

Bob Simon (00:14:05):
Bob, did I ever tell you-

Sara Williams (00:14:06):
In Alabama, it doesn't go that way. They're like, "Because there are too many lawsuits and we don't like your firm, and y'all got all those billboards and I'm tired seeing you on my television." And I'm like, "Thank you very much for that."

Bob Simon (00:14:17):
So you're saying it can't be fair.

Sara Williams (00:14:18):
Strike for cause. That's exactly right.

Bob Simon (00:14:20):
But how would the for cause, so those listening are watching for cause, when the judge is able to strike for... They just can't be fair. It doesn't cost you one of your strikes. You're just not the right case for you.

Sara Williams (00:14:31):
Right.

Bob Simon (00:14:32):
What's it like in Alabama?

Sara Williams (00:14:33):
So we have for cause strikes. It-

Bob Simon (00:14:37):
You have four or for?

Sara Williams (00:14:39):
For cause. So you have-

Bob Simon (00:14:40):
Unlimited for cause.

Sara Williams (00:14:41):
I mean, it's unlimited.

Bob Simon (00:14:42):
That's good.

Sara Williams (00:14:43):
Whether what the standard is, how it will apply depends on the judge.

Bob Simon (00:14:48):
Yeah. It's all good.

Sara Williams (00:14:49):
You know what I mean? Some judges have a very sensitive scale and they're like... If you are an insurance adjuster, they're going to kick you. You know what I mean? We had once, on a jury, a guy who ended up being a cousin of one of our parties and he didn't realize it because they were married to somebody, second husband.

Bob Simon (00:15:14):
It sounds like a West Virginia story.

Sara Williams (00:15:16):
Well, we're cousins.

Bob Simon (00:15:20):
I grew up 45 minutes West Virginia, so I can tell those jokes you can't Mauro, stop.

Mauro Fiore (00:15:24):
Did you drink Iron City?

Bob Simon (00:15:25):
No, it was iron shitty, we called it. It was terrible.

Mauro Fiore (00:15:28):
Iron shitty. I was in West Virginia one time and I went to a restaurant and everybody was drinking Iron City beer and, I just remember, this wasn't that long ago but I was in some part of West Virginia taking a death of a witness. Chester, West Virginia.

Bob Simon (00:15:43):
Oh, yeah.

Sara Williams (00:15:44):
Oh, yeah.

Mauro Fiore (00:15:45):
It was in Chester and I went to a restaurant on the main street in Chester and I got the menu, and I'm from la, I'm from Hollywood, from LA.

Sara Williams (00:15:53):
Oh, big city.

Bob Simon (00:15:54):
And, his passport always says... So I travel. I'm like, "Oh you're from Hollywood?" Yeah.

Mauro Fiore (00:15:58):
Hollywood.

Bob Simon (00:15:58):
I have a running joke whenever I'm with him and I see his passport. I have a good Hollywood joke for him.

Mauro Fiore (00:16:02):
But I have multiple passports too. I'm like the-

Sara Williams (00:16:07):
Yeah, he does.

Mauro Fiore (00:16:07):
What's that movie with the guy, the wolf or whatever?

Bob Simon (00:16:12):
Where he pretends to be the pilot. I know what you're talking about.

Mauro Fiore (00:16:15):
I got-

Bob Simon (00:16:15):
Leonard DiCaprio, where he has the-

Sara Williams (00:16:17):
But you're not a real criminal because you're talking about on your podcast.

Mauro Fiore (00:16:19):
Listen-

Bob Simon (00:16:21):
But he's not.

Mauro Fiore (00:16:21):
I have-

Bob Simon (00:16:22):
The fucked up part is when we travel, we're with families and his wife and kids, and he'll use his other passport to cut the line.

Sara Williams (00:16:27):
What are your other [inaudible 00:16:28]?

Mauro Fiore (00:16:27):
I'm blessed.

Bob Simon (00:16:29):
And he leaves his family behind.

Mauro Fiore (00:16:31):
Listen. I'm blessed.

Bob Simon (00:16:31):
So we're there with his kids and his wife, and he's waving to us-

Mauro Fiore (00:16:31):
I told them I'm like, "You guys go and wait in that line. I'm going to the EU line because I'm blessed that I have two passports." I got United States of America where I was born. I'm proud American. But I also have an EU passport.

Bob Simon (00:16:42):
Tell her.

Mauro Fiore (00:16:42):
Listen, my father was born and raised in Italy. He was in the Italian army. I deserve fucking Italian passport. So my other passport says European Union. So it makes me a citizen of 27 countries.

Sara Williams (00:16:54):
So you just-

Mauro Fiore (00:16:57):
So what I-

Sara Williams (00:16:57):
Whichever line that's short.

Bob Simon (00:16:57):
It's rude.

Mauro Fiore (00:16:57):
I can roll out. I get to Europe and Bob is sitting there and there's a line of people, a block long, where it says non-EU citizens. And then, there's the EU citizen line and I say, "Okay guys, I'll catch you on the other side."

Sara Williams (00:17:09):
You leave your family"

Bob Simon (00:17:09):
He leaves his family. It's every time.

Mauro Fiore (00:17:14):
I'll catch you guys on the other side.

Bob Simon (00:17:15):
We're going over, he's had a meal. We get to him, he's had a [inaudible 00:17:18].

Mauro Fiore (00:17:15):
Yeah, I'm at [inaudible 00:17:19].

Sara Williams (00:17:18):
Your Italian citizenship doesn't flow to your kids?

Mauro Fiore (00:17:21):
Yeah, it does, but I'm still working on getting their passports. But-

Bob Simon (00:17:26):
No, he just-

Sara Williams (00:17:26):
You just like to leave them, it's hectic. That's bad.

Mauro Fiore (00:17:27):
But it's funny. But-

Sara Williams (00:17:27):
That's bad.

Bob Simon (00:17:28):
He does it every time. It's always like where [inaudible 00:17:31].

Sara Williams (00:17:31):
They're going to watch-

Bob Simon (00:17:31):
It's funny.

Sara Williams (00:17:32):
They're going to pull this up on YouTube one day.

Mauro Fiore (00:17:35):
But I don't get the cool stamps.

Bob Simon (00:17:36):
He got the cold stamps.

Mauro Fiore (00:17:38):
My wife gets the Austria stamp and the Spain stamp.

Bob Simon (00:17:41):
He only got a tramp stamp. Okay, let's go back to-

Mauro Fiore (00:17:44):
I don't get no stamps because I'm an EU citizen. They don't stamp my passport. I just walked by.

Bob Simon (00:17:49):
So first generation lawyer, what do your folks do?

Sara Williams (00:17:51):
So my dad is retired military. He retired in '95. And my mom was a stay at home for years and then when we moved back to Tallahassee, she works for the state. Everybody in Tallahassee works for the state of Florida. That's what you do. It's a capital.

Bob Simon (00:18:08):
It's a capital.

Sara Williams (00:18:09):
Yeah. Yeah.

Bob Simon (00:18:11):
Wow.

Sara Williams (00:18:12):
So my dad, when he retired, he also worked for the state, but he's now retired again. So now he sits in his garden and drinks tequila and posts pictures, Facebook. That's his only picture every day, it's a shot of tequila and his garden.

Bob Simon (00:18:26):
Well, we sound like we could become best friends.

Mauro Fiore (00:18:28):
Your dad sounds like the kind of guy that would hang out with us.

Sara Williams (00:18:31):
He's cool. He would. He would. He'll be in San Diego.

Bob Simon (00:18:37):
Ah, nice. But a lot [inaudible 00:18:39] bro. He comes.

Sara Williams (00:18:40):
He's coming. My brother lives in San Diego.

Bob Simon (00:18:42):
Oh, nice. Was your dad ever stationed... Your family ever stationed in San Diego?

Sara Williams (00:18:47):
No, he followed a girl.

Bob Simon (00:18:49):
Oh my God.

Sara Williams (00:18:50):
Yeah, he did. He did. And luckily it panned out and they got married.

Mauro Fiore (00:18:54):
I followed a lot of girls, but then they got restraining orders.

Sara Williams (00:19:00):
I could see that. I got to tell you, if I see you walking behind me, my brother's always taught me, "Hit them first."

Bob Simon (00:19:07):
If you had to hit them first, where are you hitting them?

Sara Williams (00:19:10):
Right there.

Bob Simon (00:19:11):
Exactly. Actually we have-

Mauro Fiore (00:19:12):
Like this?

Sara Williams (00:19:13):
Yeah, because their eyes will start working.

Bob Simon (00:19:15):
You know what? I knew we would love each other. First blow is always give them a quick headbutt right here, because they don't expect you to get close to the face. Hit it, can't see-

Sara Williams (00:19:24):
Hit them in the nuts.

Bob Simon (00:19:24):
Yep. And that's the other one.

Sara Williams (00:19:26):
Yes, right.

Mauro Fiore (00:19:26):
I always see that, yeah.

Sara Williams (00:19:27):
Sorry Sanford. Maybe that will make the edit.

Bob Simon (00:19:36):
You can edit whatever you like. But I'm like, if you're in a street paw, you just hit somebody right the bridge of their nose and-

Sara Williams (00:19:39):
It's the bridge of the nose.

Bob Simon (00:19:39):
... can't see them go. See Mauro, you learned something new today for the first time.

Sara Williams (00:19:43):
Not enough people teach that. I was trying to teach my daughter because the other-

Bob Simon (00:19:49):
She's 10?

Sara Williams (00:19:50):
She's 10. She's got a little bully at school and I'm like, "Hey, sometimes don't let people touch you. Sometimes you've got to fight and if you get suspended then we'll just go have a good day. But all you have to do is fight them one time."

Bob Simon (00:20:04):
And they back down.

Sara Williams (00:20:04):
Unless you lose.

Mauro Fiore (00:20:05):
My dad always-

Bob Simon (00:20:07):
But even you lose, it's like-

Sara Williams (00:20:08):
They know that you're... That's right.

Bob Simon (00:20:10):
So you didn't start off on the bright side of the bar, the plaintiff's side. You started on the dark side. Mauro-

Mauro Fiore (00:20:15):
[inaudible 00:20:16].

Bob Simon (00:20:16):
Yeah. She's not a pure grad.

Sara Williams (00:20:18):
You're going to fight me? Hit him in the bridge.

Mauro Fiore (00:20:18):
You're not a gold star [inaudible 00:20:22].

Sara Williams (00:20:21):
From the south side of Tallahassee. Not from Hollywood.

Mauro Fiore (00:20:23):
You're not a gold star [inaudible 00:20:26]. You work for the defense.

Sara Williams (00:20:27):
I did.

Mauro Fiore (00:20:28):
What the fuck?

Sara Williams (00:20:28):
I did.

Mauro Fiore (00:20:31):
You didn't tell me this about her.

Sara Williams (00:20:31):
I did. You didn't read the email.

Bob Simon (00:20:32):
You didn't read the notes, bro. He doesn't read.

Mauro Fiore (00:20:36):
I can't read. Well, I only read three lines of an email after that. It's too much.

Sara Williams (00:20:40):
Okay. It was long.

Mauro Fiore (00:20:43):
First three lines.

Sara Williams (00:20:44):
I hate [inaudible 00:20:44].

Mauro Fiore (00:20:44):
If I can't figure out what happened in three lines, then I don't know what happened.

Sara Williams (00:20:45):
Yeah, I started off on the dark side and I represented State Farm.

Mauro Fiore (00:20:49):
Snake Farm?

Bob Simon (00:20:51):
Actually, you know what, it's to State Farms credit. They purchased three of my homes with their bad decisions.

Mauro Fiore (00:20:56):
Yeah.

Sara Williams (00:21:00):
Yeah. Alex actually, I mean he-

Bob Simon (00:21:03):
Alex Shunnarah for those who... Shunnarah.

Sara Williams (00:21:03):
Yeah. Alex-

Mauro Fiore (00:21:03):
Alex who?

Sara Williams (00:21:03):
Shunnarah.

Mauro Fiore (00:21:03):
Who's that?

Sara Williams (00:21:03):
Do you know Alex?

Bob Simon (00:21:08):
He's only a west coast dude.

Sara Williams (00:21:10):
Whose Alex Shunnarah?

Bob Simon (00:21:13):
He's like the most famous lawyer in the southeast, I would say. You can't go down the street without seeing his face.

Sara Williams (00:21:19):
Yeah, our firm has 2,500 billboards across the southeast, but he hired me and eventually 10 lawyers from my defense firm.

Bob Simon (00:21:28):
Really?

Sara Williams (00:21:28):
He was tired of us beating his lawyers and he was just like-

Bob Simon (00:21:32):
Join us.

Sara Williams (00:21:32):
... "Let's just hire them. Hire these folks. We know they're getting paid shit. So I'll just tell them that they'll make more money here. They'll still try cases."

Bob Simon (00:21:42):
So Sara's firm, I think, has a 100 plus lawyers.

Sara Williams (00:21:45):
100 plus lawyers.

Mauro Fiore (00:21:47):
What's the name of your firm?

Sara Williams (00:21:48):
Alexander Shunnarah Trial Attorneys.

Bob Simon (00:21:50):
And she's the biggest trial lawyer of the group, right? I mean you are. You're the one that get the biggest cases.

Sara Williams (00:21:58):
No-

Bob Simon (00:21:58):
Geographically, you're the-

Sara Williams (00:21:59):
So, I managed the firm for three years. So I would say that I'm probably the general, like Alex is the president, but I'm the second in command for a long time and it has just-

Bob Simon (00:22:15):
But the first in line?

Sara Williams (00:22:16):
First in line.

Bob Simon (00:22:17):
If you want to be, right?

Sara Williams (00:22:18):
There are really probably a group of 10 of us who are, and we're all in one building, who I would say are our hit squad.

Mauro Fiore (00:22:27):
And you guys are in Birmingham?

Sara Williams (00:22:28):
Mm-hmm.

Mauro Fiore (00:22:30):
That's very cool.

Bob Simon (00:22:31):
Nice.

Sara Williams (00:22:31):
And most of them around former partners from that defense firm, we've been practicing together since I started practicing. And those guys and girls-

Mauro Fiore (00:22:42):
What year did you start practicing?

Sara Williams (00:22:43):
I won't put up with any lawyer in the country. 2006.

Bob Simon (00:22:48):
About the same, I was 2005.

Mauro Fiore (00:22:49):
Been a minute. Been a minute.

Sara Williams (00:22:53):
90s?

Bob Simon (00:22:54):
He's-

Mauro Fiore (00:22:54):
Yes, in the 90s, yeah. I'm old.

Bob Simon (00:22:57):
He didn't actually go to college and didn't go to... I mean he's an interesting... So he's practicing since he was a teenager pretty much.

Mauro Fiore (00:23:03):
Yes. California has got interesting rules, how you... You got to go to college and all that stuff. Just got to pass the bar, which I did on the first try and it was easy.

Bob Simon (00:23:17):
Catch Me If You Can. That's the movie. Now, I remember.

Mauro Fiore (00:23:19):
Yeah, remember in Catch Me In You Can-

Bob Simon (00:23:19):
Yes, you can pass the bar.

Mauro Fiore (00:23:20):
I relate to Catch Me If You Can a lot because in that movie, he's a scam artist, right? But he pretends he went to Harvard Law School and he is dating this girl in the movie and her dad is the attorney general Louisiana. So he says, "Well I'll give you a job with the state and whatever." He's got to take the Louisiana bar and this guy's a scam artist and he took the Louisiana bar and he passed.

Bob Simon (00:23:44):
That's actually a true story.

Mauro Fiore (00:23:45):
And he passed it. So then they asked him after he got caught and everything they said, "Of all the scams you pulled, how'd you pass the Louisiana bar exam?" He said, "I studied for two weeks and I passed."

Sara Williams (00:24:01):
Everyone in law school's like, "Bah."

Mauro Fiore (00:24:03):
He's like-

Sara Williams (00:24:03):
But it's true.

Mauro Fiore (00:24:04):
This guy was like a high school dropout. He said, "Studied for two weeks and I passed. I studied for two weeks and I passed."

Bob Simon (00:24:10):
True access to justice for me is having true people that represent your demographic, being able to represent you.

Mauro Fiore (00:24:15):
Right.

Bob Simon (00:24:16):
And how do you bridge that gap? Because right now, there's a financial barrier to having that.

Sara Williams (00:24:21):
There is a financial barrier. I think though, in addition to the financial barrier, there's not enough visibility for those of us who have breached the gap and who are... I think we get into this space and we're like, "I'm going to lay low. I'm in here. I'm going to tiptoe around." Think about it. How many Black lawyers do you know who market heavy?

Bob Simon (00:24:47):
In LA, it's no different.

Mauro Fiore (00:24:52):
None.

Bob Simon (00:24:52):
Well no, Ben Crump, there's actually, there's very [inaudible 00:24:52].

Sara Williams (00:24:52):
He's from Tallahassee.

Mauro Fiore (00:24:52):
Ben Crump markets everywhere worked.

Sara Williams (00:24:52):
Yeah, Ben [inaudible 00:24:55]-

Mauro Fiore (00:24:55):
He went to law school with my friend, Connor [inaudible 00:24:57]. They were buddies from law school.

Sara Williams (00:24:59):
But think about that. So, is Ben-

Mauro Fiore (00:25:00):
Black lawyers should advertise in LA. In LA we have always had-

Bob Simon (00:25:03):
We don't know how to big market.

Mauro Fiore (00:25:04):
We've always had The Cochran Firm in LA. I knew Johnnie Cochran, he was the coolest dude.

Bob Simon (00:25:10):
Carl Douglas. There's a lot of big hitting-

Mauro Fiore (00:25:10):
Back in the old days, Cochran would show up at a color meeting wearing a red suit and purple crocodiles shoes. I mean, he was true-

Sara Williams (00:25:17):
He was.

Mauro Fiore (00:25:18):
He was a true G.

Sara Williams (00:25:19):
Did you know his partner...? Why am I drawing a blank? I'm not drunk.

Bob Simon (00:25:25):
White dude from Texas?

Sara Williams (00:25:26):
No.

Mauro Fiore (00:25:26):
Cochran practice with Brian-

Bob Simon (00:25:29):
Brian Dunn.

Mauro Fiore (00:25:29):
Brian Dunn.

Sara Williams (00:25:30):
Brian Dunn.

Mauro Fiore (00:25:31):
Brian Dunn was [inaudible 00:25:32]. Brian Dunn's still there.

Bob Simon (00:25:32):
Joe Barrett was there for a minute.

Mauro Fiore (00:25:33):
Joe Barrett's there.

Bob Simon (00:25:34):
Rabiah is there, which is one of my best friends.

Sara Williams (00:25:34):
I love her so much.

Bob Simon (00:25:34):
She's the best.

Mauro Fiore (00:25:38):
Yeah. Brian Dunn was there with Johnny back in the day when he was... But Johnnie Cochran was the coolest guy. Man, I'm lucky that I got to meet him, got to hang with him, saw him speak a lot, had dinner with him a couple of times. And then, he got some weird cancer and just died instantly. So

Sara Williams (00:25:53):
So his partner in Alabama was Jock Smith. Did you ever meet Jock?

Mauro Fiore (00:25:56):
Never met him.

Sara Williams (00:25:57):
He used to wear these loud suits.

Bob Simon (00:25:58):
Just like Johnnie.

Sara Williams (00:25:59):
So his daughter went to law school with me and I remember he came to school and he had this powder blue suit with matching powder blue gators. And my law school is pretty conservative, especially back then. And I remember seeing him and saying to myself like, "Oh, I'm good. All I got to do is get through this process. All I have to do is get through the things that they tell me I have to do in order to be a lawyer and then I can be myself."

Bob Simon (00:26:26):
But if you had a mentor... I mean, you were a first generation, you think you had somebody that helped guide you through that process from the beginning would've been an easier, clear path for you.

Sara Williams (00:26:37):
So I think that my path was easy from the standpoint of I had great mentors in law school. Because our law school was so non-diverse, the black students there were like a family. And so it was like, "Look, we're here. You're going to be excellent. These are the things you need to do." I was hazed into doing a trial competition and then loved it.

Bob Simon (00:27:05):
And you went to corporate law. You went do corporate [inaudible 00:27:07].

Sara Williams (00:27:07):
Well, I didn't. So here's the thing, being an insurance defense lawyer, trying... I came out of law school trying and scratch bumper car wreck.

Bob Simon (00:27:17):
That's so easy. Stand up like, "Hi, have heard from this? I'm good."

Sara Williams (00:27:21):
That's exactly right. Our formula was, all we need is one lie. All I need is one lie. And Alabama is a pure contrib state.

Bob Simon (00:27:30):
Oh, that's fucked up. For those of you don't know. That means if your client has any responsibility, even 1%, even in a rear render, you get zero.

Sara Williams (00:27:37):
That's right. I won every single rear end collision I ever tried.

Bob Simon (00:27:41):
What?

Sara Williams (00:27:41):
Defense verdict. Every single one.

Mauro Fiore (00:27:44):
One lie.

Sara Williams (00:27:44):
One lie.

Bob Simon (00:27:45):
Thank God you switched to this side.

Sara Williams (00:27:45):
I know.

Bob Simon (00:27:49):
God-damn.

Mauro Fiore (00:27:49):
I went to law school here in LA. Bob likes to tell people I went to an unaccredited law school where you didn't have to go to college first to go there.

Sara Williams (00:27:58):
Which one did you go to?

Mauro Fiore (00:28:00):
It's called University of West LA. But it is funny is that University of West LA is a historically Black law school here in LA but not American. I went to law school with every Nigerian you ever met in Los Angeles.

Bob Simon (00:28:15):
I never knew this.

Mauro Fiore (00:28:15):
So my whole law school was Nigerians because there's a big faction of Nigerian lawyers in Los Angeles because they're real smart guys too. They got English accents and shit. You ever met these Nigerians? They got English accents. They're very smart and they figured out they could be lawyers in California and they figured out they could get into my law school, unaccredited school. So my school was all these Nigerian guys that I didn't even know there was Nigerians in LA until... I grew up in LA. Until I went to law school.

Sara Williams (00:28:42):
Well, you were in Hollywood.

Mauro Fiore (00:28:46):
So I went to law school with all these Nigerian guys and they're all great lawyers, and they all became really good lawyers. So I [inaudible 00:28:53]-

Sara Williams (00:28:52):
Here's why I think the thing that happens that-

Bob Simon (00:28:55):
By the way, you are nursing your whiskey.

Mauro Fiore (00:28:57):
I drank mine.

Sara Williams (00:28:58):
I am, I am.

Bob Simon (00:28:59):
We're going to pour another one. We got a second one.

Sara Williams (00:29:01):
I'm nursing it. I think this is an important point. I think that what happens is people don't tell the truth. They become successful. I just did a video on failing out of Florida state. People don't tell the truth. And so the people that we see who are successful lawyers went to Harvard and went to Georgetown, Black lawyers and it's like, "You don't have to go to Harvard or Georgetown." My law school, it was a fourth tier school. I'm doing just fine. Alex went to an unaccredited law school in Birmingham. He's doing just fine.

Bob Simon (00:29:32):
But tell you, find most lawyers that represent people that are real human beings, don't give a fuck where they went to law school.

Sara Williams (00:29:37):
That's exactly right.

Bob Simon (00:29:38):
Yeah.

Sara Williams (00:29:38):
It doesn't matter. Look, it doesn't matter. We are all walking in the same courthouse, going up the same steps, talking to the same people.

Mauro Fiore (00:29:46):
In my 25 years in practice, I usually don't look up the other lawyers to see where they went to law school on the other side of my case, because I don't give a shit. But once in a while I'll deal with someone who's just so fucking stupid and so... I mean-

Sara Williams (00:29:59):
Condescended.

Mauro Fiore (00:30:01):
... I can't even believe it.

Bob Simon (00:30:02):
Yes.

Sara Williams (00:30:02):
Yes.

Bob Simon (00:30:03):
They just don't get it.

Sara Williams (00:30:03):
Or they drop their law school

Mauro Fiore (00:30:06):
I'll deal with these idiots, they're so stupid. Then, I'll look them up. And I'm telling you, nine times out of 10 I look these fuckers up, who are morons and they went to Harvard. And these guys, I'm playing with them like a cat with a mouse.

Sara Williams (00:30:17):
It's the lack of street smart stuff.

Bob Simon (00:30:19):
Yeah, it is.

Mauro Fiore (00:30:19):
And I'm a fucking street fucking bum that didn't even go to ice college.

Sara Williams (00:30:22):
It's the lack of street smart.

Mauro Fiore (00:30:24):
And I'm playing with these Harvard lawyers like I'm a cat with a mouse. I make them do anything I want them to do. Fucking went to Harvard. It's like, "What kind of fucking world do they live in?"

Bob Simon (00:30:31):
The worst, I mean.

Mauro Fiore (00:30:32):
They're morons.

Sara Williams (00:30:33):
Well, because what we do is about connecting with people.

Bob Simon (00:30:36):
Yeah, connecting with people.

Sara Williams (00:30:41):
I obviously have to know-

Bob Simon (00:30:41):
They connect with spreadsheets.

Sara Williams (00:30:41):
Right.

Bob Simon (00:30:41):
I'm [inaudible 00:30:41].

Sara Williams (00:30:41):
I love my friends from Harvard though.

Mauro Fiore (00:30:42):
Bob, what is this golden boss?

Bob Simon (00:30:45):
So this is-

Mauro Fiore (00:30:47):
I've never seen this [inaudible 00:30:49]-

Bob Simon (00:30:48):
So when we're filming this right now, this bottle's not available to the public.

Mauro Fiore (00:30:53):
Is that right?

Bob Simon (00:30:59):
No, this is a very... So Julie Macklowe, she wanted to make a very high-end American malt whiskey.

Mauro Fiore (00:31:06):
Like Julie Macklowe from the Macklowe family?

Bob Simon (00:31:08):
Yes. She started-

Sara Williams (00:31:08):
You're so bougie.

Mauro Fiore (00:31:08):
He's-

Bob Simon (00:31:08):
I know that-

Sara Williams (00:31:13):
You're like, "Oh yeah, I went to accredited law school." And then you're like, "From the Macklowe family?"

Bob Simon (00:31:17):
Maruro knows everything.

Mauro Fiore (00:31:18):
Well, the Macklowes are very famous socialites and philanthropists.

Bob Simon (00:31:23):
It's true.

Sara Williams (00:31:23):
So I walked through the airport with my EU passport.

Bob Simon (00:31:26):
Dusting and throwing my family in the gutter.

Sara Williams (00:31:30):
He's like, "Then I love to talk down to Harvard trained lawyers." You're bougie as shit.

Mauro Fiore (00:31:33):
Yeah, I certainly do. So the Macklowe billionaire family.

Bob Simon (00:31:36):
He knows everything about everything. Silly. You can't play trivia with this guy.

Mauro Fiore (00:31:39):
I know a little bit about everything.

Bob Simon (00:31:40):
So if you need the trivia pursuit piece, that's the yellow piece, like the history and arc. He knows stupid shit. So I pick him.

Sara Williams (00:31:45):
Why do you think that is?

Bob Simon (00:31:45):
Oh yeah. Why is this?

Mauro Fiore (00:31:48):
I don't know, man. I mean, I absorb information. I like to read and absorb information, and I like to know trivia.

Sara Williams (00:31:53):
How old are your kids?

Mauro Fiore (00:31:54):
Four and five.

Sara Williams (00:31:55):
Okay. Do you know their teacher's names?

Mauro Fiore (00:31:58):
They just started new school yesterday, so right now I don't know-

Sara Williams (00:32:02):
So the answer to my question is, no.

Mauro Fiore (00:32:04):
No. My son just started kindergarten Monday at his new school.

Bob Simon (00:32:08):
Tuesday.

Mauro Fiore (00:32:08):
Tuesday.

Sara Williams (00:32:09):
This is dads. They'll be like-

Mauro Fiore (00:32:11):
And my daughter started preschool... They go to the same school and I don't know-

Sara Williams (00:32:17):
I bet your partner knows their whole life history. This is dude, you'll know random trivia. My husband, he'll tell me the name of Ohio State's quarterback in 1985 and then I'll be like, "Hey, Malone has a quiz on Friday." He's like, "What?" It's on five different calendars.

Bob Simon (00:32:36):
No, this is 100%. We have this discussion all the time with my wife. Even this morning. She's like, "What do you mean you didn't know something was going on on Thursday?" Same thing as the calendar we talk about. I was like, "I don't even know what color our floor is. I walk in the house-

Sara Williams (00:32:49):
It's interesting to me.

Bob Simon (00:32:50):
... I have no idea."

Mauro Fiore (00:32:51):
I'm the worst at people's eye colors. If someone ask me-

Bob Simon (00:32:55):
What color is my eyes, Bob?

Mauro Fiore (00:32:56):
I don't know.

Bob Simon (00:32:56):
[inaudible 00:32:58].

Mauro Fiore (00:32:58):
I've spent years with this guy. I don't pay attention to that stuff. I really don't. I mean, I don't know-

Sara Williams (00:33:03):
Tell me about this family though.

Mauro Fiore (00:33:05):
His family?

Sara Williams (00:33:06):
No, the family of the [inaudible 00:33:08].

Mauro Fiore (00:33:07):
They're very rich people. They're like hedge fund money.

Bob Simon (00:33:11):
The financing-

Mauro Fiore (00:33:13):
Real money.

Bob Simon (00:33:13):
This is-

Mauro Fiore (00:33:13):
Real money.

Bob Simon (00:33:13):
This is Julie Macklowe's whiskey. Her dedication was just to make a high end beautiful whiskey and I've never had this. This is the first time I've opened it.

Mauro Fiore (00:33:24):
Is this bourbon or is this whiskey?

Bob Simon (00:33:24):
This is American single malt whiskey.

Mauro Fiore (00:33:25):
Okay.

Bob Simon (00:33:26):
And this isn't available yet by the time this airs. It should be. There's varying levels, but I think this will be a very, very rare thing to have going in the future. She designed the whole thing. I mean, this is a piece of art that we're [inaudible 00:33:37]-

Mauro Fiore (00:33:37):
Look at that beautiful bottle.

Bob Simon (00:33:38):
It's very beautiful. And I was like, "This is Sara Williams."

Sara Williams (00:33:42):
It is. It's like-

Bob Simon (00:33:43):
I find this bottle and now this is the bling bling of whiskey. This is be delicious.

Sara Williams (00:33:47):
Blinging.

Bob Simon (00:33:47):
I hope it's good because I'm going to send this to Julie afterwards and we're going to send over.

Sara Williams (00:33:52):
Okay.

Bob Simon (00:33:52):
Smells good.

Mauro Fiore (00:33:53):
What's the proof on this?

Bob Simon (00:33:54):
I don't have my readers on.

Mauro Fiore (00:33:57):
[inaudible 00:33:57]. Okay, we're going to get-

Bob Simon (00:33:59):
As soon as I turned 40, I had to get my eyes checked.

Sara Williams (00:34:03):
Same. I'm in bifocals now.

Bob Simon (00:34:05):
But I can't get used to it because it blurs my vision after.

Mauro Fiore (00:34:08):
[inaudible 00:34:09].

Sara Williams (00:34:09):
Thank you.

Bob Simon (00:34:09):
It's a generous pour because it's the [inaudible 00:34:13].

Mauro Fiore (00:34:13):
Let's give it a whirl.

Bob Simon (00:34:15):
It smells good.

Sara Williams (00:34:15):
It smells weird. It smells like caramel.

Mauro Fiore (00:34:18):
Vanilla for sure. I smell vanilla.

Bob Simon (00:34:21):
He just makes shit up.

Sara Williams (00:34:23):
No, with this bougie [inaudible 00:34:24].

Mauro Fiore (00:34:23):
I got a nose.

Sara Williams (00:34:23):
I know-

Bob Simon (00:34:25):
I smell ginger spice.

Mauro Fiore (00:34:27):
This nose is [inaudible 00:34:28].

Sara Williams (00:34:28):
He's probably like an Italian prince for real.

Mauro Fiore (00:34:30):
Yeah.

Sara Williams (00:34:30):
That's why he just walks through the pre-check.

Mauro Fiore (00:34:34):
I am an Italian prince. I'm afraid. I've been called an Italian prince many times. I'm Sicilian, Sicilian.

Sara Williams (00:34:48):
Oh, that's sneaky.

Bob Simon (00:34:48):
This is good. Oh, wow.

Sara Williams (00:34:48):
That will-

Bob Simon (00:34:50):
This is very good.

Sara Williams (00:34:51):
This is really good.

Bob Simon (00:34:52):
For a single malt whiskey.

Mauro Fiore (00:34:52):
What's the name, Julie Marlowe?

Bob Simon (00:34:54):
Yeah, Julie Macklowe.

Mauro Fiore (00:34:55):
Julie Macklowe. Well, tell Julie Macklowe-

Bob Simon (00:34:57):
She did a good job.

Mauro Fiore (00:34:59):
... I'm a big fan of her whiskey.

Bob Simon (00:35:00):
This is excellent.

Sara Williams (00:35:01):
The thing about this-

Mauro Fiore (00:35:02):
If she needs me to send out any of her boards, I'm available.

Bob Simon (00:35:06):
This is 2002.

Mauro Fiore (00:35:06):
Just like if I'm available to teach.

Bob Simon (00:35:08):
Wow.

Sara Williams (00:35:09):
I would love to get you down to Alabama to teach. I'm going to get Bob down.

Bob Simon (00:35:14):
He'll get arrested.

Mauro Fiore (00:35:17):
Maybe.

Bob Simon (00:35:18):
[inaudible 00:35:19]. He actually researches what criminal professor he has to call when we're traveling in case something happens to him.

Mauro Fiore (00:35:25):
Yeah, I buy the criminal defense insurance when I go to different countries.

Sara Williams (00:35:29):
That's smart.

Mauro Fiore (00:35:31):
Yeah.

Bob Simon (00:35:31):
Or is it not?

Mauro Fiore (00:35:31):
Because I know I'm going to get drunk-

Bob Simon (00:35:31):
Because don't be in trouble.

Mauro Fiore (00:35:33):
... I'm going to fucking throw a punch.

Sara Williams (00:35:34):
Right.

Mauro Fiore (00:35:35):
I'm going to get drunk. I might shoplift something. Who knows?

Bob Simon (00:35:38):
You might shop [inaudible 00:35:39]?

Mauro Fiore (00:35:39):
I get out of my mind and I start... I might steal a candy bar. I don't know. I'm out of mind. I get crazy. I get crazy. So I need criminal defense on speed dial.

Sara Williams (00:35:48):
That's smart.

Mauro Fiore (00:35:49):
Yeah.

Bob Simon (00:35:49):
No it's not. It's just moral.

Mauro Fiore (00:35:50):
Yeah, it is. That way I can make sure I'm taken care of. Although I do have a cousin who's a lawyer in Sicily, so she'll take care of me.

Bob Simon (00:35:58):
If I wanted to start an insurance agency, I would just bark at Mauoros of the world, just to buy something you'll never use, insurance for people that might get caught shoplifting candy bars. All right, Sara, let's go back to... You're in law school right now.

Sara Williams (00:36:13):
I'm in law school.

Bob Simon (00:36:13):
You go to State Farm, you're trying. Waking up on Friday, getting a file Friday afternoon, trying that case on Monday. Scratch bender [inaudible 00:36:21] offenders. Defense on Friday.

Mauro Fiore (00:36:23):
I love those stupid lawyers. I love those cases when they bring the defense lawyer in the day before trial. But if they don't know anything about the case and you can clown them a little bit.

Sara Williams (00:36:30):
You could clown them. You couldn't clown me.

Bob Simon (00:36:33):
She's a fucking [inaudible 00:36:34].

Sara Williams (00:36:33):
I'm just telling you.

Mauro Fiore (00:36:34):
Remains to be seen.

Sara Williams (00:36:35):
When I was young, I didn't have kids, it was always 12 o'clock on Friday. And my phone call was this, "It's not my money. I'm going to offer you all my authority." But if you make me work this weekend and I can't hang out and kick it, I am going to fuck you up.

Bob Simon (00:36:53):
Oh my God.

Sara Williams (00:36:53):
You won't get paid on this case. That was always my thing. The thing is, when you are that person and you talk big shit, you have to deliver. And so-

Mauro Fiore (00:37:03):
Can I kick it?

Sara Williams (00:37:05):
Yes, you can.

Mauro Fiore (00:37:12):
(Singing).

Sara Williams (00:37:12):
Just my guy.

Bob Simon (00:37:12):
See, that's Mauro [inaudible 00:37:13].

Sara Williams (00:37:13):
Maybe in California though, that happens. And listen, Alex did a good job of-

Bob Simon (00:37:19):
How long did you last? Yeah, but how long did you last over there?

Sara Williams (00:37:23):
So two years because I was really, really... I was hungry to try bigger cases. I wanted to be a plaintiff's lawyer and I felt like my path to that was making my name, just beating them. And so I was like, eventually someone will say, "Hey, we should just hire this girl and take her out of the game."

Bob Simon (00:37:45):
And that did happen.

Sara Williams (00:37:47):
So I was trying scratch bumper cases. I did that for a couple years and I was like, "Okay y'all, I've done this. I want to try bigger cases," and just didn't have that opportunity. Thought I wanted to do employment law because all Black lawyers do employment law in Alabama for some reason.

Bob Simon (00:38:05):
Is the employment law good in Alabama?

Sara Williams (00:38:08):
It's good for defense lawyers. The laws are terrible for people.

Bob Simon (00:38:12):
So Carlifonia is-

Mauro Fiore (00:38:15):
What was the name of that guy from Kentucky-

Sara Williams (00:38:15):
It's different laws. Yeah.

Mauro Fiore (00:38:15):
... that when we went to Bourbon of Proof, his lawyer in Louisville, we went out to dinner with him?

Bob Simon (00:38:21):
There was a million of them.

Mauro Fiore (00:38:22):
He was doing employment.

Bob Simon (00:38:25):
Louisville?

Mauro Fiore (00:38:25):
Yeah, I can't remember that guy's name, but he said the same thing.

Bob Simon (00:38:28):
This is really good.

Mauro Fiore (00:38:28):
He said employment's tough in the south, with law [inaudible 00:38:33].

Sara Williams (00:38:33):
And I think what happens is because corporations have been tough on diversity. When you have Black graduates, it's like that's the industry they end up in. And so a lot of my mentors were employment lawyers, so I wanted to either try catastrophic cases or do employment law, and the firm I was with didn't give me those opportunities. So I left and went to a firm that did and then I hated it, and then ended up working with the partner who did trucking and loved it. I look back now and I'm like, "Please Lord, don't let my daughter ever do this." But I was on the road in the middle of the sticks meeting with truck drivers. I remember riding through this street and seeing white sheets hanging up and I was like, "Are these people in the KKK?"

Bob Simon (00:39:17):
This is [inaudible 00:39:19].

Sara Williams (00:39:20):
And I texted my friends like, "Hey, I'm going to text you in two hours. If I don't text you in two hours, I'm in this house."

Bob Simon (00:39:24):
It's funny, we had that same conversation with many people on this show. How many times we've all been out and site inspections and finding a witness and send a picture to a loved one. It says, "This is where I last was if I don't come home."

Sara Williams (00:39:38):
I had a Blackberry. That was before you could drop a pin to someone. You know what I mean? I had to print out my map quest direction.

Mauro Fiore (00:39:45):
Well, that's the thing. I know Bob believes in this too, and I believe in this big time too. And obviously, I think you do too. The lawyers in my office, part of the reason why lawyers come work at my office is because I will absolutely give them an opportunity to try cases immediately when they come to my office.

Sara Williams (00:40:02):
Right.

Mauro Fiore (00:40:02):
They're not going to be sitting around answering discovery, bullshit.

Bob Simon (00:40:05):
But you try-

Mauro Fiore (00:40:05):
If they come my office, they're going to try.

Bob Simon (00:40:07):
I always say on our side to learn, the hardest cases to try are the scratch bumper cases.

Sara Williams (00:40:12):
That's right.

Bob Simon (00:40:14):
One of my biggest verdicts I had against State Farm was $17 million on a scratch bumper case and had all the things that can go wrong. And I teach a lot off that case. And once I tried a lot like that, if you can find a way to win these... And we had the same thing-

Sara Williams (00:40:28):
That's exactly right.

Bob Simon (00:40:30):
So you had the [inaudible 00:40:31].

Mauro Fiore (00:40:30):
You [inaudible 00:40:31] his name on that case.

Bob Simon (00:40:33):
Well, not to be discussed.

Mauro Fiore (00:40:33):
[inaudible 00:40:35].

Sara Williams (00:40:35):
Poor [inaudible 00:40:36].

Bob Simon (00:40:36):
He was president of Bobadah.

Mauro Fiore (00:40:37):
[inaudible 00:40:38].

Bob Simon (00:40:38):
But he's a very nice human being. And the thing they didn't see coming is my client was the best human being ever.

Sara Williams (00:40:44):
Right. And it's a personality contest. Right?

Bob Simon (00:40:47):
Yeah, he was a D1 basketball player. He was a single father, a Black guy in LA and had the best story. So the concentration was the story and there was no very non-invisible property damage. But his injuries were catastrophic, but they didn't see him coming. But when you talk about your amputee walking in the courtroom, I had him sit there and he looks like he's perfectly healthy. And I asked jurors who thinks that he's lying or making it up? We had so many people raise their hand and say... And he was getting so mad. I told him, "You're going to feel some hate." Because we're ferret out. You have undercover racism. You have to ferret it out. And they thought, "Black guy sitting there asking..." I told him, I was like, "Ask for $15 million pain and suffering," before we started jury selection.

Sara Williams (00:41:32):
And people were like, "Whaa."

Bob Simon (00:41:34):
Oh no, but you surprised, we watched those non verbals. But the ones that were just... You could see them looking and they were like, "Who thinks he's faking already?" People were like, "I think he's faking it." Why? My judge, she was Black judge and she was awesome. You could see it and it was happening lifetime. I could feel it in his heart. We took a break and he was crying. He just wanted to get up there and yell at them like, "Dude, Norberg, chill, bro. Because you got to hear it. You got to hear the hate."

Mauro Fiore (00:42:02):
One thing I'll say, I've tried 50,60 case, I can't even remember how many. I watched Bob try case one time, and ever since I watched Bob try that case, I stolen so much shit from that clothes that he did. I use that every time. You know what Bob always says? He says, "I'm going to ask you for $10 million, but if you believe in your hearts that my client is a liar, a cheat, and a fraud, don't give him a fucking dollar. Nothing."

Bob Simon (00:42:28):
Don't go [inaudible 00:42:29].

Mauro Fiore (00:42:28):
Not even a dollar.

Bob Simon (00:42:28):
I will give a zip cause where I'll cut myself off.

Mauro Fiore (00:42:32):
Not even a dollar.

Bob Simon (00:42:33):
But sometimes-

Mauro Fiore (00:42:33):
But if you don't believe that they're fraud-

Bob Simon (00:42:36):
But that was the day-

Mauro Fiore (00:42:36):
... give them everything.

Bob Simon (00:42:37):
... from the jury selection, which I tell them, "If you think this person... Who thinks right now they're lying? Who wants to hear the truth, the story first." I feel like-

Mauro Fiore (00:42:44):
But do you feel like-

Bob Simon (00:42:47):
So I want to hear where Sara Williams is now. You have a name for you. We never met in person until today.

Sara Williams (00:42:52):
I know, it's [inaudible 00:42:53] weird.

Bob Simon (00:42:53):
You are a force, but I feel like I know you. But a lot of people now look up to you and see you as a mentor and role model. What does the future look like for you and where do you want to go?

Sara Williams (00:43:07):
Man-

Bob Simon (00:43:07):
Loaded question.

Sara Williams (00:43:08):
It's a good question.

Bob Simon (00:43:08):
And you should be loaded for this question.

Sara Williams (00:43:12):
I will tell you, I want to do more of the things that make me fill my cup. I think that especially as trial lawyers, we serve people a lot and we tend to be people pleasers, and we tend to take on cases because we have big hearts. And then you get into it and you're like, "Why did I take this case?"

Bob Simon (00:43:37):
I'm not allowed to do intake in my firm because I'll take every case.

Sara Williams (00:43:39):
Oh listen, listen.

Bob Simon (00:43:41):
But I was like, "I could win this case. I feel bad for you." They don't let me do it anymore.

Sara Williams (00:43:44):
My staff sometimes are like, "Come on Sara." And I'm like, "Yeah, but they said this and I think I can do this." And so I end up in situations and doing things for organizations that I do because I care about people a lot. And so for me, I just turned 43.

Bob Simon (00:44:01):
Oh cheers, same. We're same age.

Mauro Fiore (00:44:03):
Vintage.

Sara Williams (00:44:04):
Vintage.

Bob Simon (00:44:05):
Are you a 1980 baby?

Sara Williams (00:44:07):
1980, best year.

Bob Simon (00:44:09):
Wow. Mauro's like a 1970.

Mauro Fiore (00:44:11):
I'm from the 70s, girl.

Sara Williams (00:44:12):
You look good though. You look like you had some melanin. We don't-

Mauro Fiore (00:44:16):
I was born in 74. Hardcore since 74.

Bob Simon (00:44:19):
Oh my God.

Sara Williams (00:44:20):
But yeah-

Bob Simon (00:44:20):
I said no one ever.

Sara Williams (00:44:21):
... I want to do things that make me happy. I want to teach more.

Bob Simon (00:44:24):
What fills your cup? Teaching?

Sara Williams (00:44:25):
Teaching fills my cup. I love when I have a student who thinks that they can't do it because they're soft-spoken or they aren't the best student. And then seeing them in their third year just balling out during a competition and realizing and owning who they are, and just being who they are in a courtroom, that is what drives me. And so I want to handle fewer cases so that I can teach more.

Bob Simon (00:44:53):
Do you feel like if you're teaching more, you could help more people on a scale?

Sara Williams (00:44:58):
I think that in order for us to encourage the first gen folks and let them know that this is a path that is viable for them, they have to have people in the classrooms with them giving them that message. And so I think it's important to be there. I had the best mentors and so I think you've got to give back. Somebody has to be the one to bring them along. And so for me, my mission, it's almost more important for me to create more of an army of lawyers who are trying cases on either side from the perspective of caring about people.

Bob Simon (00:45:38):
Wow. You can legit be that four star general.

Sara Williams (00:45:40):
That's exactly right. Sometimes they refer me cases.

Bob Simon (00:45:44):
There you go. So I look at this guy... But it's the same if you're helping a lot of people. Sometimes the case is right for you. Sometimes it's right for somebody else. But we were DMing about this. It was a joke. But one of your students, you were like, "I taught him and now here we are."

Sara Williams (00:46:03):
Hunter.

Bob Simon (00:46:04):
Hunter Garnet, which I met one time.

Sara Williams (00:46:07):
Adore Hunter.

Bob Simon (00:46:09):
You don't know this guy, Mauro. [inaudible 00:46:10].

Sara Williams (00:46:10):
He can't dance for shit, but love Hunter.

Bob Simon (00:46:12):
He's also wears a cowboy hat. He's like six foot six.

Sara Williams (00:46:15):
Well, he's in north Alabama, so he's on par.

Bob Simon (00:46:19):
But I met him. I was like, "I love this guy." So we talk. He a very smart dude that gets it.

Sara Williams (00:46:26):
He is a very genuine kind-hearted.

Mauro Fiore (00:46:31):
He wears cowboy hats?

Bob Simon (00:46:32):
Yeah.

Sara Williams (00:46:32):
Yeah.

Mauro Fiore (00:46:33):
It's like Kane Brown or big cowboy hat?

Bob Simon (00:46:36):
Not a 10 gallon, just like a regular Stetson.

Sara Williams (00:46:38):
Yeah, just your Monday through Friday [inaudible 00:46:41].

Bob Simon (00:46:41):
Come on, man.

Sara Williams (00:46:42):
Says the dude in the 80s [inaudible 00:46:45].

Bob Simon (00:46:45):
The odd job man.

Mauro Fiore (00:46:45):
This is called a Heisenberg.

Bob Simon (00:46:48):
Oh, I actually did the Heisenberg. What does it say, on the inside of that? It actually says, "The Heisenberg."

Mauro Fiore (00:46:52):
The Heisen. This is actually a limited edition Heisenberg hat from [inaudible 00:46:57]-

Sara Williams (00:46:57):
Even your hat is bougie. Goodness.

Mauro Fiore (00:46:58):
I am.

Sara Williams (00:46:58):
Wow.

Bob Simon (00:47:01):
God, this is funny. Yesterday I had a memory pop up on my Instagram. Oh, my Facebook. It was eight years ago when I did... Somebody sent me a breaking bad doll of Heisenberg with a bottle of whiskey, congratulate me on a verdict because I was trying a case on Riverside and there was a lot of meth addicts. Every day I would walk over people that were on meth to the courthouse that was binge-watching, Breaking Bad. So I did the Breaking Bad clothes, which a lot of people now mimic, which I put up Heisenberg on the street.

Mauro Fiore (00:47:28):
I use it all the time.

Bob Simon (00:47:29):
Yes, everybody does that. I stirred that because in that trial-

Mauro Fiore (00:47:33):
If they could give you a bag of money and all that.

Bob Simon (00:47:35):
Yes.

Mauro Fiore (00:47:36):
I use it every time. I steal so much shit from Bob, I feel like.

Bob Simon (00:47:37):
My little brother who was in law school at the time, he was my second chair/doing tech for me. We did the Heisenberg clothes.

Sara Williams (00:47:44):
How many siblings do you have?

Bob Simon (00:47:46):
Four. Two brothers and two sisters. My twin brother runs a practice with me. We're partners and everything. My little brother's a partner at a firm. My two sisters on Justice HQ. So we're all-

Sara Williams (00:47:54):
That's awesome.

Bob Simon (00:47:55):
Yeah, my dad works for me. My mom works for me. My dad's new wife works for me, one her daughters works for me. We're all big family. It's amazing.

Sara Williams (00:48:02):
I love that. I met your sister. Well, we Zoomed.

Bob Simon (00:48:05):
Which one?

Mauro Fiore (00:48:05):
My mom used to work for me.

Sara Williams (00:48:05):
Julie.

Bob Simon (00:48:07):
Oh, Julie's the best.

Sara Williams (00:48:08):
She's sweet.

Bob Simon (00:48:09):
So Julie and I are separated by 12 years, but we're probably the most alike. Well, I'm tied for the oldest, but she's the youngest. We're the most alike, I think.

Sara Williams (00:48:18):
I'm excited to meat her in San Diego. I'm really looking forward to Wadi Girl.

Bob Simon (00:48:21):
Oh, you're going to have so much fun. It's a different [inaudible 00:48:24].

Sara Williams (00:48:24):
I mean, the singer's high. I have big expectations.

Bob Simon (00:48:28):
I actually think the Friday show with without the headliner is going to be way better than... Actually, the headliner's amazing. But there's a show on Friday that's going to be-

Mauro Fiore (00:48:37):
Why? What's going on Friday.

Bob Simon (00:48:38):
I want it to be a surprise for a reason.

Mauro Fiore (00:48:40):
If that where Sara-

Bob Simon (00:48:40):
I was [inaudible 00:48:42] surprised

Mauro Fiore (00:48:40):
Sara is from my office, the senior.

Bob Simon (00:48:42):
You know who you know the DJ is? She's being mentored by actually one of the grandchildren of Nearest Green.

Mauro Fiore (00:48:50):
You know that Sara-

Bob Simon (00:48:51):
I heard she's like the best DJ here in LA.

Mauro Fiore (00:48:53):
... my CLO, my office Sara Tam claimed she's singing at [inaudible 00:48:56].

Bob Simon (00:48:56):
See, I don't even know, man. These are a lot of surprises. But she's my favorite DJ. She was with us in Atlanta. She does a lot of our events and she is-

Mauro Fiore (00:49:04):
DJ Richie.

Bob Simon (00:49:05):
She will be DJing with a-

Mauro Fiore (00:49:08):
She DJ'd my Halloween party last year.

Bob Simon (00:49:09):
Really? DJ Richie, when I was Atlanta, she went and did our event there and we... I ordered a pizza. Pizza saved my life. If I had an autobiography, it would be pizza saved my life. So I'm wait for this pizza outside the [inaudible 00:49:20] and I finally get this pizza box and it's open. And behind, it closes, it's her. And she's like, "I got you." She took a piece and ran. I was like, "Where the fuck were you?" I don't know where she came from, but you stole a piece of pizza. I was so drunk. I went upstairs to my wife and she's like, "There's a pizza missing? Did you eat it?" I was like, "No." But one of her friends, I saw her, I think.

Sara Williams (00:49:43):
This was the tip for the delivery of the pizza.

Mauro Fiore (00:49:46):
I love that.

Bob Simon (00:49:46):
That was her tax. She taxed my ass. Okay, so we got to ask you are these two whiskeys as we're sitting here, and thank you so much for coming on the show. We're at the tail end. But these were specifically picked for you for very specific reasons. Both female distillers, some of the rarest of the rare whiskeys, but which is your bourbon of proof as you sit here today?

Sara Williams (00:50:10):
See, don't do this to me because I feel like for the culture, I have to select Uncle Nearest, which I will tell you I like sweeter liquors and so-

Mauro Fiore (00:50:23):
More wheat and more wheat in the mash bill, it gets sweeter.

Sara Williams (00:50:27):
Another random fact.

Mauro Fiore (00:50:28):
Yes.

Bob Simon (00:50:29):
He just makes shit up. He's probably wrong.

Mauro Fiore (00:50:31):
I might be wrong.

Bob Simon (00:50:34):
He wrote that on his... See his forearm. He actually just wrote show notes on it.

Sara Williams (00:50:38):
I can't because I don't have all my bifocals because I was like, "I'm not going to-

Bob Simon (00:50:42):
It says something, 6.33.

Mauro Fiore (00:50:45):
This is some of my fake tattoos.

Sara Williams (00:50:47):
But this, I think if you are just raw dug in with no ice, this is what you want.

Bob Simon (00:50:57):
But they're both very interesting different tastes. So the difference is the price point. This is probably 10 times the price of this. So this is one you could pick up out of BevMo.

Sara Williams (00:51:09):
40, 50 bucks?

Bob Simon (00:51:09):
Yeah. Amazing. I would drink this every day of the week. I mean, she did a fantastic job with that. This is a higher end. You could taste it.

Mauro Fiore (00:51:20):
Yeah.

Sara Williams (00:51:20):
Yeah. And I will tell you this, I... So one of the things that we do at my firm is if you get a seven figure result, you get a bottle of Pappy.

Bob Simon (00:51:31):
No, shit.

Mauro Fiore (00:51:32):
Cool. I don't know where you get [inaudible 00:51:34] it at.

Bob Simon (00:51:33):
I know.

Sara Williams (00:51:34):
So, you get a seven figure result, you get a 10 year, your second one for the year, you get a 12, you get a eight figure and you get... So I remember getting my... And here's crazy about it from a motivational standpoint, we'll have mediators call and they'll say, "Man, we're at 950, and your lawyer won't budge," because they want this bottle of Pappy. And we're like, "Yeah."

Bob Simon (00:52:01):
What can I say?

Sara Williams (00:52:02):
What can I say? They're not going to get it if they settle it for 950. And I also know having been a defense lawyer, if you've got 950-

Bob Simon (00:52:08):
950, you've got a million.

Sara Williams (00:52:09):
... you've got a million. So we're not saving you any money.

Bob Simon (00:52:12):
The 950 is a favor to that lawyer you'll see again because they got the million.

Sara Williams (00:52:17):
That's exactly right.

Bob Simon (00:52:18):
So if you take the 950, my world-

Mauro Fiore (00:52:20):
If you take [inaudible 00:52:21].

Bob Simon (00:52:21):
... you take the 50 off your attorney's fees because you know you could have got the million. You find it later.

Mauro Fiore (00:52:25):
I'm friends with some defense lawyers, believe it or not. Some real close friends with the defense lawyers and they got the money, but let them save a little bit. They can look good with the adjuster, with the carrier.

Sara Williams (00:52:36):
It depends.

Mauro Fiore (00:52:37):
Sometimes make them look good.

Sara Williams (00:52:38):
Let me tell you, for me, it depends. If you've disrespected me throughout mediation or throughout the process, I'm not going to save you a damn dime because I want you to remember what it felt like to go through this experience. Sometimes I think you have to take positions for your future cases. And so, I want you to remember that I wouldn't save you a dime.

Bob Simon (00:53:01):
But do you kill that with kindness while you do this? Because you're-

Sara Williams (00:53:04):
Oh, I do everything with the smile. My students-

Bob Simon (00:53:05):
I feel like-

Sara Williams (00:53:06):
My students are always like, "You say things that are really, really hard, but you're smiling." And so I feel sad, but I also feel... It confuses people. Here's what happened with me. When I was a student, my first trial competition, I was killing my cross. And this dumb ass lawyer was like, "You're such a bitch. You're such a bitch. You came off as such a bitch." And I was like-

Mauro Fiore (00:53:30):
That lawyer that was judging it?

Sara Williams (00:53:31):
Yeah, lawyer that was judging it.

Bob Simon (00:53:32):
They usually don't know what the fuck they're doing. Right?

Sara Williams (00:53:35):
I remember being in a practice, and so I changed up my delivery style. I changed my voice to make it softer and it was fake as shit. And my coach, who's a judge now was like, "Stop, do it again. Stop. Do it again." And I was so embarrassed because I was two L. And he was like, "This is not your voice." And we spent four hours on it. And finally he was like, "You're not a 40-year-old white woman. Why are you speaking like this?" I was like, "Because this dude..." This dude who's a partner at this huge firm and who is renowned as a litigator in this state, told me that I sounded too much like a bitch. And so I'm trying to get a job. I'm not doing this for free.

(00:54:13):
And he was like, "You don't have to do that. You don't have to change who you are." He goes, "Why don't you try smiling?" And so that is what I did. And so my delivery did not change. I just smiled. So when I cross examine, I smile and people are always like, "I don't know what's going on. I like you-

Bob Simon (00:54:30):
You know what?

Sara Williams (00:54:30):
... but you're tearing me up, but I want to give you what I'm giving you."

Bob Simon (00:54:33):
We teach the same. If you can kill with kindness and smiled, where were you on Monday? Were you like, "Are you testifying against somebody else?" The jury's like, "Oh my God, this is something that's pleasant that we're going to talk about."

Mauro Fiore (00:54:45):
We did that one time when I was trying a case, Bob had a guy, same expert in trial like the day before, and Bob's like, "I just had this guy yesterday." I asked him where he was yesterday. So I was in my trial. "Where were you yesterday?" "Oh, I don't remember."

Bob Simon (00:54:59):
They never remember.

Mauro Fiore (00:55:01):
Weren't you testifying as an expert, spewing the same nonsense at another courthouse down the road from here? "Oh, well, maybe." Said, "Well, maybe. It's yes or no." Especially when Bob just had him.

Bob Simon (00:55:13):
When I say, "Mauro, this is how he tries case." It's just, you have to be yourself.

Sara Williams (00:55:17):
You have to be yourself.

Bob Simon (00:55:21):
Because people generally, if I walked as a juror, knew nothing. My wife's actually on standing line for jury duty right now, and I've been in the back room as a juror, I never get picked. I wish I would. But I hear the shit they talk about.

Sara Williams (00:55:31):
I got picked once.

Bob Simon (00:55:34):
I would love that.

Sara Williams (00:55:35):
Not on a jury. I got on a panel and then I got kicked.

Bob Simon (00:55:40):
I got kicked off by-

Sara Williams (00:55:41):
Because my students were the lawyers trying.

Bob Simon (00:55:41):
I got kicked off by the prosecutor as was a criminal case. One of the questions was, "Do you think that racism in the criminal justice system is real?" I was like, "Yep." I raised my hand, I'm like, "Yep."

Sara Williams (00:55:54):
Is the sky blue?

Bob Simon (00:55:58):
And I can see all the jurors shaking their head, and I'm an Inglewood. So I pulled Inglewood and they're like... The prosecutor's asking me the question, "Why do you feel that way?" I was like, "Look, I picked jurors for a living. Do you want me to answer the question with open edited?" And he's like, "Go ahead, answer the question." And I just went off and I gave a whole up, "This is what I see day to day."

Sara Williams (00:56:14):
But this is what I mean about people not telling the truth. It's like, here's the thing. We know it exists unless we tell the truth about it, we can't get rid of it. If we're all like, "Oh no, there's no racism. We're all Black people." You can't get rid of it. And so it's like we're not having these hard conversations because we want to make you feel bad.

Bob Simon (00:56:38):
This is just truth in history.

Sara Williams (00:56:39):
We got to figure our shit out.

Bob Simon (00:56:40):
Truth, in history. This is why you have to teach... People say that shit. I'm like, "Are we not going to teach about what happened to the Jewish people and with Nazi?" Let's forget about it, it didn't happen. And then it'll just go away. History repeats itself unless you teach history.

Sara Williams (00:56:57):
Well, and it also helps you... I will say one of the greatest things about my experience teaching is that I have the ability to interact with some students who have never had a Black woman in a leadership position. And that's an educational experience. But it also, because of who I am and how I teach, it's like, "Oh, I can be open with her and talk to Sara about some things that I will be nervous talking to anyone else about. And we can have conversations and hard conversations, and she can challenge my perspective, and I can educate myself and I can challenge her perspective." And so I think if we don't talk about these things, we won't grow. And we won't change.

Bob Simon (00:57:47):
I mean, our production say, we have to wrap this up soon. But I love this conversation and it just reminds me of, I think in education, even early education, we should have more people of color educating people early. And now that you say that, we had one, I think one... I grew up in inner city, Pittsburgh, and we had one Black teacher, and I still remember, Mrs. Smith, that she taught us just exactly what you're talking about. She taught us the real of the real. And she would pull us in and we had so many, just, I think more diverse people just through a thought process, just through a simple question. She wouldn't tell us. She would just ask us a question. It was before Socratic method. I knew as a lawyer, but would just ask us questions as we were probably eighth grade, ninth grade. And I still remember today the question that just would jog. And, "Oh, I never thought about it that way."

Sara Williams (00:58:40):
Yep. And it makes you a better lawyer. Look, we have to know all the laws and the facts, and we have to know what we have to prove. But with what we do, you have to know people. And if you've closed yourself off, you can't fake that. You can't fake knowing people. And a lot of trial... There's no consultant, there's no program. There's no book that can teach you how to be a good person and to know people and interact with people.

Bob Simon (00:59:13):
So thank you for being on this episode of Bourbon of Proof. Reach out to Sara Williams if you want the real of the real... God, there was a couple of bourbons in-

Mauro Fiore (00:59:17):
The real, real.

Bob Simon (00:59:18):
The real, real. The real. Real, real.

Mauro Fiore (00:59:19):
That's my guy.

Bob Simon (00:59:25):
But if you want to be a better human being, which will make you a better trial lawyer being in the service industry or be a teacher and learn people before you get there. Where were you before you were a lawyer?

Sara Williams (00:59:36):
Where was I before I was a lawyer?

Bob Simon (00:59:39):
Did you ever have a job?

Sara Williams (00:59:41):
I was a administrative assistant at victim's compensation for the state of Florida.

Bob Simon (00:59:45):
There you go. Mauro, how about you? Where were you before?

Mauro Fiore (00:59:47):
I used to drive the ball picker at a driving range, and when I'd get out of it, people would try to hit me with the fucking balls. People are bastards. They'd shoot balls at me, but I used to-

Sara Williams (00:59:58):
They'd shoot balls at you?

Mauro Fiore (00:59:59):
Yeah. I used to drive the-

Sara Williams (01:00:00):
You didn't like that?

Mauro Fiore (01:00:00):
... ball picker, a driving range. I was a golfer, so I would drive the ball picker. I made like six bucks an hour, but I could also hit unlimited balls, the driving range. And I used to hit balls. I used to hit 500 balls a day. Which is why it's so funny, I didn't play golf from when I was 21 years old. I quit playing golf because I went to school and went to law school, became a lawyer, did everything. And I didn't play golf from when I was 21 until the pandemic, 2020.

Bob Simon (01:00:29):
What?

Mauro Fiore (01:00:29):
I didn't play at all. I didn't even have golf clubs because I just quit the game. But I had played so much golf as a kid and I hit 500 balls a day when I worked at the driving range that I went out and started playing. And my friends who were playing golf would be like, "What the fuck man? You can really play." And I'd be like, "I guess. I mean, I don't know." And I was really good player. Still to this day, I play golf with my friends and they're always shocked. They say, "Man, I can't believe how good you are."

Bob Simon (01:00:59):
But it's low expectations.

Mauro Fiore (01:01:01):
Yeah, because I get out there and they figure-

Sara Williams (01:01:03):
And they don't know that you're an Italian prince.

Mauro Fiore (01:01:04):
... "There's no way this guy can [inaudible 01:01:06]."

Sara Williams (01:01:07):
They don't know that he's an Italian prince with two passports.

Bob Simon (01:01:07):
(Singing).

Sara Williams (01:01:07):
They're like, "Oh, we're about to mess this dude up."

Mauro Fiore (01:01:11):
I go out to play golf [inaudible 01:01:12] kid, they're really shocked when I play golf with people because they're like, "Whoa."

Sara Williams (01:01:15):
You went to an unaccredited law school, how can you play-

Mauro Fiore (01:01:19):
You went to a shit law school, how can you be such a good player? Shit, I worked at a driving range.

Sara Williams (01:01:22):
I'm an Italian prince. Y'all don't know.

Bob Simon (01:01:23):
Sara, thank you for joining me and the Italian Prince on this episode of Bourbon of Proof.