Bob Simon (00:00):
After a couple of tequilas Carl, can I ask you, did OJ do it?
Carl Douglas (00:03):
It's funny, man.
Mauro Fiore (00:04):
What kind of a question is that?
Bob Simon (00:07):
I mean you got to ask.
Mauro Fiore (00:07):
He asked that question.
Carl Douglas (00:08):
And that could be an entire podcast by itself, man. Everything I am as a lawyer is in part impacted by the nine months that I worked on that trial. 16 months on the case, and nine months on the trial. But for a young lawyer to be able to just absorb the collection of great minds working together on a single case was a fascinating experience and one that I will take to my grave.
Bob Simon (01:00):
Welcome to this episode of Bourbon of Proof, where we interview those who have been both successful at law and life. Today we have a legend. But before we get there, usually we do it over bourbon. Today we're doing it over tequila. And we have a very, very esteemed co-host, Mauro Fiore, who's going to introduce the tequila and also our very esteemed guest.
Mauro Fiore (01:21):
You mean I'm not the legend?
Bob Simon (01:23):
No.
Mauro Fiore (01:26):
Oh, I thought you were talking me up. Oh, Carl's the legend. Carl is.
Bob Simon (01:27):
Yes.
Mauro Fiore (01:28):
Well, we have the legendary Carl Douglas here with us today.
Bob Simon (01:32):
Thank you so much.
Mauro Fiore (01:33):
And Carl as in a departure from Bourbon of Proof is a tequila drinker so we have tequila. What tequila do we have here? We have Clase Azul, which is the brand that I think is right now very popular, everyone likes. But it was founded in Mexico by a Mexican bartender who was 23 years old and he wanted to make it truly Mexican original tequila. And every bottle's hand painted. And what I like about him is that recently I think Bacardi offered him a billion dollars for Clase Azul.
Bob Simon (02:12):
A billion dollars?
Mauro Fiore (02:13):
And he told them, "It's not for sale."
Bob Simon (02:15):
Wow.
Mauro Fiore (02:16):
That's the guy who believes in his company.
Bob Simon (02:18):
I love it.
Mauro Fiore (02:19):
Let's have a little Clase. And then every bottle of Clase is a bell, if you know how to ring it right. Let me try. Oh, man.
Bob Simon (02:28):
Can't ring it right.
Mauro Fiore (02:30):
Can't ring it. Oh, well.
Bob Simon (02:32):
Mauro's never been able to ring the bell at trial either, so Carl might be able to give it a go.
Mauro Fiore (02:35):
Here, give it a whirl.
Carl Douglas (02:36):
Well listen, guy.
Bob Simon (02:36):
Now.
Mauro Fiore (02:36):
Maybe you're cheating. Let me put it on the ground.
Carl Douglas (02:41):
Because this is called Bourbon of Proof, I really appreciate the commitment of changing up for me.
Bob Simon (02:45):
He can't give it up. Look at this guy. Look at him.
Carl Douglas (02:48):
There you go.
Mauro Fiore (02:49):
Aha. Finally.
Carl Douglas (02:53):
There you go.
Mauro Fiore (02:53):
Okay. And I know Bob likes tequila, so I've drank a lot of tequila with him. Your wife's a tequila drinker.
Bob Simon (02:57):
Yeah. We have a lot of these at the home. I never knew it was a bell.
Carl Douglas (03:00):
Nor did I.
Mauro Fiore (03:02):
Yeah. Now Bob for sure, Chrissy likes little tequila. She likes that Maestro Dobel or whatever. Right, that's the one she likes?
Bob Simon (03:08):
She like Casa Dragones and, yeah, that's her jam. But this is a Reposado, right?
Mauro Fiore (03:12):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (03:12):
All right, Carl.
Carl Douglas (03:14):
Cheers. Please.
Bob Simon (03:16):
To the legend.
Carl Douglas (03:17):
Thank you so much.
Bob Simon (03:18):
And also Mauro. Oh, that's good.
Mauro Fiore (03:23):
I mean that is a nice smooth sipping tequila.
Bob Simon (03:24):
It is.
Carl Douglas (03:27):
Very much so. I mean, Carl, look. Stop with this bell.
Mauro Fiore (03:29):
I apologize. I apologize.
Bob Simon (03:31):
Speaking of ringing the bell, speaking of billions, Carl Douglas is the only one in the room that's had a billion dollar verdict. Right?
Carl Douglas (03:36):
Yes, I have.
Bob Simon (03:40):
How did this come to be? Because we'll start there. We're going to get to all the other stuff you've done over your esteemed... He's the only one in the Hall of Fame for trial lawyers here. Hall of Fame.
Carl Douglas (03:47):
Thank you. I'm lucky because good friend of mine, Brian Panish, asked me to join a trial team in late 1995, representing a family that had been tragically burned because of the way that the gas tank of a 1994 Malibu was designed. The gas tank was positioned 11 inches behind the rear bumper. And on a fateful day, a family of six were driving. They were stopped at Vermont in some street. They were rear-ended, and the bumper penetrated the gas tank and it started an explosion.
(04:36):
The mother of five children watched one of her daughters who were so badly burned that her ears were burned off. Her right hand was burned off. She had to undergo 60 different surgeries from the Grossman Burn Center. After Briones I remember, just to try to return some level of normalcy.
(05:01):
During the course of the trial, great lawyers, Chris Bagnoli and Brian Panish, who worked the case up, found a document years before that the designers and engineers at GM knew about this issue. And rather than calculate and put on a fix that would cost $6 per car, they decided instead to pay the risks of any verdict that might come...
Bob Simon (05:28):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (05:28):
From these fire-producing vehicles. Brian and Chris brought on lawyers who were involved in the Pinto case back in the '70s. And the jury returned a verdict of $100 million in compensatory damages. And then we went to a punitive damages phase and they returned $4.8 billion...
Bob Simon (05:52):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (05:53):
In punitive damages. I have a copy of the verdict form in my wall in my office.
Bob Simon (05:58):
And it's great, this was 30 years ago. You remember every fact.
Carl Douglas (06:00):
Absolutely. If you ever hear a jury say "$4.9 billion," that is something you remember.
Bob Simon (06:08):
Mauro remembers $11,900.
Mauro Fiore (06:11):
You're getting like Dordic now.
Bob Simon (06:12):
What?
Mauro Fiore (06:13):
You stop talking about my verdicts.
Bob Simon (06:15):
Okay. I won't.
Mauro Fiore (06:15):
There's some good ones in there too.
Bob Simon (06:16):
There's some good ones.
Carl Douglas (06:17):
For sure.
Bob Simon (06:17):
Well, Carl, congratulations on that verdict because I'll probably finish this four and probably a few other ones.
Carl Douglas (06:22):
Absolutely.
Mauro Fiore (06:23):
I have a good story. One time when I was a new lawyer, I went to the Compton Courthouse. And in my department, Carl was trying a case. And I still remember it like yesterday, I went in there for a status hearing. I don't remember, maybe he'll remember this case. It was in Compton. They had on the plaintiff's side must have been 20 lawyers. They had folding tables set up all around the courtroom. Everyone had their own little folding table from Costco. And I was like, "Why did they need 20 lawyers on the plane of sight of this case?" What was that case, Carl?
Carl Douglas (06:56):
That was the trial, Mauro, that I won the Trial Lawyer of the year award from CAALA. There had been 20 workers who were working 40 feet up creating the structure for a water treatment plant. They were using old scaffolding and the scaffolding collapsed and men were running for their life to try to avoid the collapse. People had their legs impaled. There were 25 different plaintiffs. We had a joint trial. Dana Fox, I remember was the main lawyer...
Mauro Fiore (07:35):
Dana Fox.
Carl Douglas (07:36):
On behalf of the defendants. Jeff Wells brought me on. Dennis Elber, one of the main lawyers, the three of us tried the case on liability. And then after we won on liability, I was able to secure a second plaintiff for damages. There were perhaps 25 plaintiffs, only one was Caucasian American. He was able to run from the collapse and not fall. And I was able to secure a great seven figure verdict for him.
Mauro Fiore (08:12):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (08:12):
Even though he didn't fall.
Bob Simon (08:14):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (08:14):
I remember that trial because Dana Fox...
Bob Simon (08:19):
I've had four against Dana Fox so...
Carl Douglas (08:21):
I told the jury in closing argument, "I think you should award this lead plaintiff $8 million because that would be fair." The jury gave him 16 million, but Dana said $8 million would be fair for this man who had been impaled by the tragedy of his scaffolding.
Bob Simon (08:41):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (08:42):
It's an amazing trial.
Bob Simon (08:43):
He tells zero to every jury I have with him. But on liability.
Carl Douglas (08:47):
That was one where Dana took it well. I'll give him credit.
Bob Simon (08:51):
Well, wow. Carl, a lot of people, I grew up a fan of you from... I grew up in Pittsburgh, so we were 1991, '92, this time we're watching trial. This is when I was inspired to be a trial lawyer because we saw what was going on in the news. That's the only thing we saw was the trial that was happening at that time and you were the dream team. You were the dream team with OJ Simpson. And that was back with Judge Ito way long. I mean this was '92.
Mauro Fiore (09:22):
With Johnnie Cochran.
Carl Douglas (09:23):
1994, '95.
Mauro Fiore (09:25):
Robert Shapiro, Johnnie Cochran.
Carl Douglas (09:29):
Correct.
Mauro Fiore (09:29):
And what's the name? Kardashian.
Carl Douglas (09:32):
Kardashian. I was the senior lawyer in Johnnie Cochran's office then. And we were fortunate to come on to represent Mr. Simpson then. It was like finishing school for me. I was 40 years old then.
Bob Simon (09:46):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (09:46):
I've been lawyer 15 years.
Bob Simon (09:48):
You still look 40.
Carl Douglas (09:49):
Thank you.
Bob Simon (09:50):
That was 30 years ago.
Carl Douglas (09:50):
30 years ago.
Bob Simon (09:50):
That's crazy.
Carl Douglas (09:52):
And there were some of the greatest lawyers in history together. F. Lee Bailey was my particular hero. Michael Baden is the most decorated, great forensic expert I've ever used. And for a young lawyer like me to have the occasion-
Bob Simon (10:12):
You said you're 40, you're young?
Carl Douglas (10:14):
I was the second youngest on the team.
Bob Simon (10:16):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (10:17):
So I felt young. But for a young lawyer to be able to just absorb the collection of great minds working together on a single case was a fascinating experience and one that I will take to my grave. And everything I am as a lawyer is in part impacted by the nine months that I worked on that trial. 16 months on the case and nine months on the trial.
Bob Simon (10:48):
Could you pour us another one, Mauro.
Carl Douglas (10:49):
Please.
Bob Simon (10:50):
Were you... Because I've been at the Cochran firm right outside, was it in Hancock Park at the time?
Carl Douglas (10:56):
On Highland. Correct. On Highland.
Mauro Fiore (10:56):
I think it's still there.
Carl Douglas (10:56):
It's still there. Wilshire and Highland. Correct.
Bob Simon (10:59):
Because we used to... I mean, I was just enamored with a story and he was a hero of mine when I was a young trial lawyer.
Carl Douglas (11:04):
Sure.
Bob Simon (11:07):
We would go there and I think when I became a young lawyer is when he unfortunately passed. I knew Carl Douglass, it didn't ring. Stop trying to ring the fucking... You're never going to ring the bell. You're never going to have a billion dollar verdict.
Mauro Fiore (11:16):
It sucks.
Bob Simon (11:16):
I mean, come on.
Mauro Fiore (11:18):
Yeah. It sucks.
Bob Simon (11:19):
Yeah. Mauro, I mean come on. But I mean, one thing I got to ask you, so you probably know an ethics question. I recently had one of my clients pass away before the settlement check came in. Do I still have the client duty?
Mauro Fiore (11:30):
Did they sign the release?
Bob Simon (11:32):
Yeah, they signed.
Mauro Fiore (11:32):
If they signed the release and the check came in, then you're good. You could deposit in your trust account.
Bob Simon (11:37):
Cheers. This is another one. Carl...
Carl Douglas (11:40):
Please.
Bob Simon (11:40):
You're going to do three of the same pour.
Carl Douglas (11:41):
Please. Cheers.
Mauro Fiore (11:43):
When I was a young lawyer, I've been a lawyer a little bit longer than Bob. Johnny Cochran was still around. And Johnny Cochran was the nicest, the most classiest guy. He used to drive a red fucking Rolls Royce with white interior, corniche. And he'd get out of that thing in the Brioni suit, alligator shoes. I mean he was the real deal.
Carl Douglas (12:08):
Yeah. I was raised in LA.
Mauro Fiore (12:09):
Me too.
Carl Douglas (12:09):
And any Black lawyer, Black person who was raised in LA really came to respect Johnny Cochran. I tell my colleagues across the country that as famous as Johnny Cochran became nationwide after OJ Simpson he was that beloved in Los Angeles from the African American community before OJ Simpson because he always was at the vanguard of fighting for the rights of Black and brown people against the police.
(12:39):
In Pittsburgh, it may have been the same. Mauro knows, in Los Angeles there has historically been throughout my entire life, man, tensions and issues of unfairness between the community and police. I dare say, Bob, you could walk down the streets of LA today, stop any Black person at random. And he could tell you a story of himself, a family member or a friend being treated unfairly by a police officer.
Bob Simon (13:11):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (13:12):
At random. And that problem was so endemic in the '60s and the '70s when I was being raised that Johnny Cochran was always a hero to us. When I got a chance, because I started out after law school working in the federal government, I had a job in February my last year. That was a big deal. February had a job, shit. Things were well, no stress. And I remember, man, I was hired under Jimmy Carter.
Bob Simon (13:48):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (13:48):
And when I started working, Ronald Reagan was elected president.
Mauro Fiore (13:53):
You were a federal public defender.
Carl Douglas (13:54):
Correct.
Mauro Fiore (13:55):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (13:55):
No, then I was with the FCC because I was wanted do entertainment only. And the transition in 1980 from Jimmy Carter to Ronald Reagan was almost as abrupt from Obama to Trump.
Bob Simon (14:10):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (14:11):
Not quite, but almost as dramatic. And after about a year, it took about a year for the Republican policies to filter down to the grunt level where I was at the FCC. And the tenor of government changed. Government was no longer good for people. It was bad. That tenor changed. From that, I came back to LA because I was sitting in a cubicle my first year as a lawyer talking on the phone and not dealing with people firsthand. And that would be good as an old fuck. But as a young lawyer.
Bob Simon (14:47):
I'm a young buck.
Carl Douglas (14:47):
I wanted to do something real. For me being a lawyer was Perry Mason before LA Law. And I didn't enjoy using my talent that way. I called my professor at law school who hooked me in to the federal public defender's office in LA, Jim Dunn. Jim Dunn who just died. He was the head PD then. And he hired me with no criminal experience, but with a recommendation that set me off. And from that point on, working in Johnny Cochran's office was the epitome of lawyering and that got me on my way to where I am today. He is next to my mother, I'll say the greatest influence in my life.
Bob Simon (15:36):
Johnny?
Carl Douglas (15:37):
Johnny was for sure.
Mauro Fiore (15:37):
Drink to Johnny.
Bob Simon (15:37):
Drink to Johnny. And to Carl's mom because we met his mom at the Hall of Fame dinner.
Carl Douglas (15:40):
Sure.
Bob Simon (15:40):
Mom was awesome.
Carl Douglas (15:45):
My mother is the highest ranking African American woman in the history of Toastmasters, a speaking group.
Bob Simon (15:54):
Now you know how well verbose you are.
Carl Douglas (15:56):
Everything I am as a speaker, I attribute to my mother. She could today at 90 stand up and give an impromptu speech and not say, "Er," or, "Um," or, "You know."
Bob Simon (16:11):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (16:12):
They teach you that Toastmasters everything I am I give to her.
Bob Simon (16:16):
That's amazing.
Mauro Fiore (16:17):
I met his mom.
Bob Simon (16:18):
We talk about the-
Mauro Fiore (16:19):
All of my TBI, I attribute to my dad. He'd say, "Shut up," and he'd smack me. Shut the fuck up.
Bob Simon (16:27):
[inaudible 00:16:27] that he says. Well, now that we know. I mean we know, I mean this tequila is amazing, but I know the ethics of that my client passing. But after a couple of tequilas, Carl, can I ask you, did OJ do it?
Carl Douglas (16:39):
It's funny, man.
Mauro Fiore (16:44):
What kind of a question is that?
Bob Simon (16:44):
I mean you got to ask.
Mauro Fiore (16:44):
You asked that question.
Carl Douglas (16:45):
And that could be an entire podcast by itself, man.
Bob Simon (16:47):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (16:47):
Because before I came on the case, I thought he did it too.
Bob Simon (16:54):
Whoa.
Carl Douglas (16:55):
And then I had a chance man to work 16 months with the motherfucker. I had a chance to sit and talk with him privately. And I had a chance to see his heart that you could only understand with that kind of a connection with a person. And I understand everybody who has the belief after watching snippets of a nine-month trial that this man killed two people.
(17:28):
I will go to my grave believing two things. One, that the prosecution failed in their burden of proving him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, one. And two, that the LAPD or someone messed with the evidence to convict someone whom they thought is guilty. I'm a civil libertarian. Black jurors convict Black people of murder every day in downtown Los Angeles. But if the police could get away with messing with the evidence and win against OJ Simpson, my brothers, none of us are safe. Give you an example. You got a big old big ass bowl of spaghetti. Okay. That you're eating.
Mauro Fiore (18:22):
I'm in.
Carl Douglas (18:22):
Big ass bowl of spaghetti.
Mauro Fiore (18:24):
I'm in.
Bob Simon (18:25):
Say less.
Carl Douglas (18:25):
And you're eating it. Okay. You're eating it. Big ass, good spaghetti. And then there's a roach in the bowl. What? There's a roach in the bowl. Now, do you keep eating that bowl of spaghetti or do you throw the whole bowl out?
Bob Simon (18:41):
I mean...
Mauro Fiore (18:41):
It depends how-
Bob Simon (18:44):
You'd probably keep eating a little, but we'd probably cut around it. But it's us.
Carl Douglas (18:48):
The jurors were given that same analogy. And because there were roaches, more than one in the big ass bowl of spaghetti, they chose to throw out the entire bowl. Not just a Black juror. There was a white juror. There were Latin jurors as well. Okay. Only 12 people in America heard every question that was asked in that place.
Bob Simon (19:14):
But that's the... But there were 12. It wasn't one of those things where it was a hung jury, nothing. I mean, it was 12.
Carl Douglas (19:20):
Unanimous.
Bob Simon (19:20):
Unanimous.
Carl Douglas (19:21):
12 jurors who listened to every answer that was given. Okay. And these 12 jurors, when they were finally able to consider together the evidence took less than four hours to decide.
Bob Simon (19:32):
I didn't know that.
Carl Douglas (19:33):
Not that he wasn't innocent.
Bob Simon (19:33):
Four hours.
Carl Douglas (19:33):
Not that he wasn't innocent, I thought he was innocent.
Bob Simon (19:35):
Okay, let me ask you this.
Mauro Fiore (19:36):
You know, when I was...
Carl Douglas (19:36):
Please.
Bob Simon (19:37):
Whenever you get a quick verdict like that, because we get on our side, because you do a lot of criminal civil rights stuff.
Carl Douglas (19:42):
Correct.
Bob Simon (19:43):
A quick verdict when we're representing the plaintiff is usually bad.
Mauro Fiore (19:45):
Is bad.
Carl Douglas (19:45):
Is bad things. Correct.
Bob Simon (19:46):
On the defense it's usually a bad thing.
Carl Douglas (19:48):
Correct.
Bob Simon (19:49):
Usually means that they're like, "You know what? Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty."
Carl Douglas (19:51):
Correct.
Bob Simon (19:52):
What's in your heart when that comes out? Four hours. You guys had to been like, "This is going to take a day or two. We're good."
Carl Douglas (19:57):
Listen, there was a read back.
Bob Simon (20:01):
Oh, there was?
Carl Douglas (20:02):
I was the one lawyer who was assigned jury babysitting duty. I was the manager in Johnny's office. Johnny's birthday was the first day of deliberations. He and his wife went to the wine country to hang out. Barry Scheck went back to New York, a new fellow back to New York. Everyone thought it'd be at least a couple of days and not a week. It's a nine-month trial. There was a read back and before the read back they stopped and they said, "We don't have all the verdict forms." Okay. The clerk gives the verdict forms back to the jury room, and nine minutes after the verdict forms, there's three buzzes. There's a verdict.
Bob Simon (20:45):
Your heart must have sank.
Carl Douglas (20:46):
I remember, no.
Bob Simon (20:49):
Listen dude, I would've been-
Carl Douglas (20:50):
There was no way this jury could convict OJ Simpson in nine minutes. I was convinced it takes longer than that to fill out the forms. If it is guilty, you got forms that lesser included. You got forms, checkbox. It takes longer than that if it's guilty I thought. I told that to OJ. He was in the lockup pacing like a lion cage, wondering. I have a colorful language. "Motherfucker, don't worry. There's no way they convict you in nine minutes."
(21:28):
Every member of the team called me at home that night asking me to figure out, read the tea leaf. "What does it, mean Carl? What does it mean?" I told every one of them that same story. Everyone called except for one lawyer. Bob Shapiro never called because he was giving an interview with Diane Sawyer talking about playing the race card. I was totally convinced because of the timing that the verdict would be not guilty.
Bob Simon (22:01):
But when this happened, because they say the verdict's in nine minutes later after the read back.
Carl Douglas (22:08):
They were going to hold the verdict for the next day...
Bob Simon (22:10):
Oh, wow.
Carl Douglas (22:11):
Because of the concerns about riots. This was after Rodney King verdicts.
Mauro Fiore (22:16):
Yeah, they had to secure the courthouse. And everything. Wow.
Carl Douglas (22:18):
That night I called Johnny, "Jay, Jay," he had to take the phone in a closet at a wine cellar in Napa. He took my call. "Jay, Jay, they got a verdict." It was his birthday. October 2nd, 1995.
Mauro Fiore (22:35):
That's amazing.
Carl Douglas (22:36):
He had to fly home to take the verdict. Yeah, it was amazing.
Mauro Fiore (22:40):
I have an OJ story. I've already told you my OJ story. My dad used to own a limo service.
Carl Douglas (22:44):
Please.
Mauro Fiore (22:45):
Okay. A big limo service in LA and OJ was my dad's client.
Bob Simon (22:48):
I've heard a million Mauro stories. I've never heard this story.
Mauro Fiore (22:50):
OJ was my dad's client. And when I was in law school, occasionally if it was a weekend or whatever, I would drive a limo. A couple of times I drove for OJ.
Bob Simon (23:02):
There's no way this is true.
Mauro Fiore (23:04):
Swear on my mother. Okay. Swear on my mother. I picked up OJ one time at LAX. He was fucked up, I can tell you that. OJ liked to drink, because every time I picked him up he was fucked up. He's a drinker but the nicest guy in the world. He had a horse running at Santa Anita, when I picked him up at LAX, he had owned race horses.
(23:24):
He had a horse, and I still remember to this day, the name of the horse was called Reinerate. He said, "We're going to go see Reinerate win this fucking race." I said, "Okay, OJ, let's go." We go. He's like, "Stop here, stop here." We stopped at some random liquor store in Arcadia on the way to the track. He gets out of the car. People are... You have to understand in LA at that time, this was before the internet, before everything, OJ was as big as...
Carl Douglas (23:50):
Correct.
Mauro Fiore (23:51):
There was no place OJ could not go...
Carl Douglas (23:54):
Correct.
Mauro Fiore (23:54):
Where he wasn't mobbed by fans and he fucking loved it.
Carl Douglas (23:59):
Correct.
Bob Simon (24:00):
Wow.
Mauro Fiore (24:00):
This son of a bitch. I said, "OJ, we're going to miss the race." He's taking pictures, signing autographs for an hour at some liquor store in Arcadia.
Carl Douglas (24:05):
Correct.
Mauro Fiore (24:06):
I said, "OJ, what time's the horse race, man? You can't take a picture with fucking every person in Arcadia," but I had to almost throw him in the limo. He loved people Every time I was with him, he could not sign enough autographs or take enough pictures.
Carl Douglas (24:18):
Correct.
Mauro Fiore (24:19):
And so he was always real super cool. He always tipped good.
Bob Simon (24:22):
Always tipped Good. Well, I mean-
Mauro Fiore (24:24):
I used to take him to his house in Rockingham.
Bob Simon (24:26):
You mentioned-
Carl Douglas (24:26):
It's incredible, man, that there's an entire generation of people who only know OJ in terms of being charged with two murders. And didn't know how he was the first celebrity that transferred from being an athlete into a commercial icon.
Mauro Fiore (24:41):
Icon.
Bob Simon (24:41):
I watched everything he took on.
Carl Douglas (24:43):
Chevrolet.
Bob Simon (24:43):
Yeah, dude.
Carl Douglas (24:45):
Hertz. All the-
Mauro Fiore (24:45):
Like Kanye says, when OJ wore Isotoners.
Carl Douglas (24:47):
Yeah. All of that. All of it. It was the gloves.
Bob Simon (24:50):
Also Don Marino.
Mauro Fiore (24:50):
Don Marino.
Carl Douglas (24:51):
Yes, yeah.
Bob Simon (24:53):
Yeah, I always had this feeling about Bob Shapiro and you mentioned his name, how he was on an interview with Diane Sawyer at the time when the verdict's about to come down. Was he actually part of the dream team? I mean I know he put it together, but is he part of this collective when you go on Highland there?
Carl Douglas (25:08):
Well, he was initially and he did a great job of putting the team together. The thing that made it difficult however, was he had never tried a murder case before OJ.
Bob Simon (25:20):
Really?
Carl Douglas (25:21):
And every one of the other lawyers had tried a murder case before. It's like going to war with a general that had never yet...
Mauro Fiore (25:30):
Been to war.
Carl Douglas (25:30):
Been to war.
Mauro Fiore (25:31):
I mean, you were a federal PD, you tried hundreds of cases.
Carl Douglas (25:33):
Correct. Well, not... 35 of 40 I had I'm sure. But every one of us had been through those fires before. And we would meet, Bob, every Saturday talking about the discovery that was coming in. I had 14 notebooks at one point. And you could tell in the question being asked who was up on the discovery and who was behind. And he was always behind on keeping track of going to Laker games. He was the shit in those days. He'd go to the forum and his face be on the jumbotron as he walked to his seat.
Mauro Fiore (26:07):
Yeah, he was big.
Carl Douglas (26:08):
He'd go to the Palm Restaurant and they would stop and applaud as he walked into the Palm Restaurant. December of 1994, Bob Kardashian and OJ made a change. We had a vacation, we had a Christmas break before trial would start in January, the trial of the century. And Bob Shapiro and his family went to Hawaii on vacation over the Christmas break. And we on the trial team were stunned.
Bob Simon (26:43):
You guys sere working. You guys were-
Carl Douglas (26:44):
We started trialing in January, in two weeks. And it was during that time that Kardashian and OJ made a decision to change the hub, the headquarters from Shapiro's office to Cochran's office on Wilshire and Highland. And it was fucked up because he was on vacation and we moved the files from his office to our office.
Bob Simon (27:04):
It also makes sense because you guys, I mean this is the war room. This is where you are.
Carl Douglas (27:07):
Yeah. And Johnny was the trial guy. He had tried dozens of murder cases. He was most qualified singularly to handle a case of this depth, of this complexity in downtown Los Angeles where there was by chance a healthily majority African American jury. And everyone realized and understood the dynamics of race. And before people talk shit, even the prosecutors understood the dynamics of race because they brought on a Black prosecutor during that time.
Bob Simon (27:46):
Chris-
Carl Douglas (27:47):
Chris Darden.
Bob Simon (27:47):
Chris Darden.
Carl Douglas (27:48):
Who had not been involved at all. Because race, as you both know, is always a circumstance in Los Angeles that you must consider to your peril.
Bob Simon (27:59):
But it is in most jury trials. And one of my good friends, Bryce Ellis from law firm Rise, who I actually see watching this episode is one of my best friends. We talk about this because he's seen every one of our trials. We talk a lot about, I just tried a death of a person that was African American and how it's a different... If you're trying a case in Los Angeles, where you are and how you have to consider it at all times.
Carl Douglas (28:19):
Correct.
Bob Simon (28:19):
And I've heard, I've never talked to you about this, but everybody talks about Carl Douglas if you're in the courtroom and how astute you are on this subject of being sensitive to it and understanding it.
Carl Douglas (28:33):
I'm Black and I've always been Black. I'm going to die Black. I don't want to die because I'm Black. In order for me to be successful in this world I live in, there has to be certain truth that I recognize and I deal with. I don't surrender. I don't talk differently. I do talk differently depending on who my audience is.
Bob Simon (29:04):
Because of toast master's and your mom.
Carl Douglas (29:05):
I do talk differently. I'm mindful of that. But I must consider everything necessary for my client to win in my circumstance. Now at the same time, I'll bring you on in Orange County, I'll bring you on in Norwalk.
Mauro Fiore (29:23):
Sure.
Carl Douglas (29:24):
And I do all the time because I'm a big one, man, on the prayer of serenity. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. And it's important that I have the courage to do that which I think I should. That's why I am proudly a civil rights lawyer.
Bob Simon (29:55):
Yes.
Carl Douglas (29:56):
That's why I am proud, different than most of your lawyer speakers, 90% of my cases come off the streets.
Bob Simon (30:07):
Yeah. And you do a lot of shit that none of us have the courage to do. We've talked about this because you're doing stuff that you know you're likely to lose those cases and you don't give a fuck.
Carl Douglas (30:16):
Well-
Bob Simon (30:17):
I mean it's true. I saw you in San Diego recently. He's trying this hard-ass civil rights case in San Diego.
Carl Douglas (30:22):
That I lost.
Bob Simon (30:23):
Yeah. And I mean it was a hard-ass case.
Carl Douglas (30:25):
Yes, it was. It was.
Bob Simon (30:25):
And I saw him coming to the hotel. I was like...
Carl Douglas (30:26):
It was.
Bob Simon (30:27):
I mean cases you're going to lose because you want to change someone.
Mauro Fiore (30:31):
If you're not losing, you're not trying enough cases.
Carl Douglas (30:34):
You only tried tough cases, one. You only try tough cases, one. Two, and this is a terrible thing to say, I'm a great lawyer, but I'm a terrible businessman. I do shit because I feel it being done. If I don't like you as a client, I'm not taking your case because I won't work Sunday night when I want to do something else on your... Or Tuesday afternoon, Tuesday evening. I have to have that visceral connection. I don't take a bigger fee than my clients take home check.
Bob Simon (31:11):
That's actually, that's true in our office.
Carl Douglas (31:13):
When I say that...
Bob Simon (31:15):
You never should do that.
Carl Douglas (31:15):
People... When I say that.
Bob Simon (31:15):
Should never do that.
Carl Douglas (31:15):
I've said at a seminar and people gasped. They gasp. I'll take every expense dollar, but I will cut my fee so that I do not take more than my client because it looks bad when I do.
Bob Simon (31:31):
It's the right thing to do. I don't know how lawyers, they send us... We've worked with a lot of lawyers refer us cases. We tried their case and they try to send us this disbursement to send the client net. It's like, wait, how's that possible? This is not happening on the planet.
Carl Douglas (31:45):
I have seen and I'll... Big time lawyers who we've discussed in various episodes on this show who tragically have not followed that model on cases that I've had with them. And I had one family member, he had another family member and there are different fee structures, which is...
Bob Simon (32:05):
Makes no sense.
Carl Douglas (32:05):
Sickening to me. Fellas, I survived emergency brain surgery.
Bob Simon (32:13):
Wait, what? When was this?
Carl Douglas (32:15):
January of '23. I got two holes in my head here, two holes in my head here. I had a subdural hematoma. There was blood rushing from my brain into my skull. Fortunately as a PI lawyer, I was walking in my office and I had drop foot. And I know drop foot is neurological. I'd had a low-measured headache for many weeks. And I went to a doctor on a Friday and they were operating on my brain that Saturday afternoon.
Bob Simon (32:49):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (32:51):
Six weeks later I announced ready for trial.
Bob Simon (32:54):
Wow.
Carl Douglas (32:55):
My doctor calls me the miracle man. Because of that, my life changed. I enjoy food even more. I don't want to do shit I don't want to do unless they're with family. In terms of sitting at a meeting that's boring, I'll get up and walk out. I enjoy the value of every day. And I'm big on karma. I will, Mauro, walk to the line and look over. I don't cross it. I walk to it and look over. Okay. But because I give praises every day that I'm awake, because it could have been different I am mindful of my obligations to life and to people. And I pledge every day to make a motherfucker's life better.
Bob Simon (33:46):
I love it.
Carl Douglas (33:46):
That's what I do.
Mauro Fiore (33:48):
I'll drink to that.
Bob Simon (33:48):
We'll drink to that, man. That should be a new cheers.
Carl Douglas (33:52):
Make a motherfucker's life better.
Bob Simon (33:53):
Mm-hmm. One story I got to ask you about because I've heard fables about this, but...
Carl Douglas (33:58):
Please.
Bob Simon (33:58):
During that multi-billion-dollar verdict, I heard that the defense was going to call the witness that could hurt your case. Maybe it was an expert. And I heard that you rolled in that day with a purple suit or a loud suit and the jury couldn't take their eyes off of Carl Douglas. They didn't hear a word that... I never talked to you about this. I heard this from somebody else. They're like-
Mauro Fiore (34:18):
Much like my leopard print.
Bob Simon (34:20):
Imagine wearing a leopard suit into trial and the jury couldn't take... Because you're an enamored person. If you walk into the courtroom, everyone's looking at fucking Carl Douglas. Everybody is. They want to see what you're doing, what you're actioning on. I want to never ask, is this true or not?
Carl Douglas (34:35):
Well, one, I don't remember. But two, I was trained as a lawyer to control the courtroom, one. Three, I do have a purple suit. Okay. And I remember that trial, General Motors, Patricia Anders with General Motors, was at what we called then the bank.
Bob Simon (35:02):
Oh, CCW.
Mauro Fiore (35:03):
Commonwealth. Commonwealth.
Carl Douglas (35:03):
Okay.
Bob Simon (35:04):
Been very kind to me by the way. Very kind.
Carl Douglas (35:05):
It was, there was a 12-week trial. And who can stand and sit for 12 weeks and afford it? City workers, county workers, federal workers, school districts, phone company. The jury was heavily African American. Knowing the jury at the bank would be heavily African American, I'm sure is the reason Brian and Chris called me to represent the driver of the car to be on the case because they played the race card, knowing as we all knew, that there would be a heavily African American jury. And though I don't remember that day, I do know that I would always wear a purple suit at an appropriate time to impress my jury.
Bob Simon (36:00):
I love this. I love this.
Carl Douglas (36:02):
That sounds much like me.
Bob Simon (36:05):
I love this. Because I used to... You have to distract the jury whenever they're doing shit that might hurt your case. I used to bring out a pad and just draw or have somebody deliver me papers at the... I did this at the last trial. People would deliver me papers in the middle of the direct of the expert. And the jury's looking at me like, "What's going on?" They don't hear what's happening over here.
Carl Douglas (36:24):
The other story-
Bob Simon (36:25):
I remember, that's a good trick.
Mauro Fiore (36:26):
Sometimes I pretend I'm sleeping at the council table.
Bob Simon (36:28):
Yeah. [inaudible 00:36:30]
Carl Douglas (36:29):
Before that trial, I remember we turned down $6 million.
Bob Simon (36:36):
This was '95.
Carl Douglas (36:36):
'95.
Bob Simon (36:36):
'95.
Carl Douglas (36:38):
I had never seen a $6 million verdict and Brian turned down $6 million. Pretty amazing. [inaudible 00:36:49]
Bob Simon (36:49):
To Brian Panash, one of the greatist trial lawyers. But he's just like... I was with him yesterday actually. He's a personality.
Mauro Fiore (36:55):
Yeah. He's great.
Bob Simon (36:57):
But he also has a photographic memory. If you give him a file, Brian can pick it up on Friday, know every single fact by Monday and know it and know it.
Mauro Fiore (37:04):
It's funny, he likes to send me messages on Instagram and he's always just fact-checking everything. "I want to see the rest of that pitch." Because if I threw out the first pitch at a game, "I didn't see the whole video."
Bob Simon (37:15):
Well, you know he's-
Mauro Fiore (37:16):
I'm doing his voice. "I didn't see the whole video." And then Bob will post a video of me playing golf or whatever. "I want to see more of that golf swing. I want to see more."
Bob Simon (37:25):
I actually showed him how the whole golf swing because he's very impressed by Mauro the... Mauro's an athlete. You don't know that.
Carl Douglas (37:30):
I didn't know that.
Bob Simon (37:31):
He looks like an athlete.
Mauro Fiore (37:32):
Yeah. I remember.
Bob Simon (37:33):
We should do a shot of his calves because there's like two humans that are holding his calves together in a cloth. It's like a perfect Atlas.
Mauro Fiore (37:40):
I remember the first LA TLC casino nights and everything back 10 years ago. Carl's always been a big supporter of LATLC. Bob was former president of LATLC. I'm a mayor that's a board member. I remember my dad, who I always talk about. I brought my mom and my dad to a few of those first events. And my dad, like I say, the old Sicilian guy, born and raised in Sicily. Real hard guy, a blue collar guy. He loved the OJ Simpson trial. He watched every fucking minute of it. He was glued to the TV. He loved that shit.
(38:14):
It was weird. We went to the... And Carl comes in the thing and my dad says, "Hey, that's Carl Douglas." I'd never seen my dad like starstruck. And he's like, "That's Carl Douglas." My dad was the most hardcore old Italian guy. He didn't give a shit about anything. Could have been Sylvester Stallone, he wouldn't even look at him. But it was Carl Douglas. And I said, "I'm friends with him." And he said, "Bring him over. I want to talk to him."
(38:36):
I went and said, "Carl, man, I hate to bother you, man. Can you say hi to my mom and dad?" And then he was like, "Oh." And he goes, you know Carl, he's not a too... There's never a short conversation. He goes over and talks to my parents and, man, he made their night. And I'll never forget that. And that was something.
Bob Simon (38:49):
That's awesome.
Mauro Fiore (38:49):
That was amazing. And my dad's talked about it.
Carl Douglas (38:52):
It's amazing, man, whether you are white, Black, conservative, Republican, everyone has always been fascinated with everything OJ Simpson. Whenever someone knows my connection, there's always an enraptured conversation. It's like the who done it of all who done it. It's amazing.
Mauro Fiore (39:13):
I watched that one of these... There's so many OJ documentaries, but there was one where one of OJ's buddies was saying, "We went to some Black tie ball or something and we got there. It was me and OJ and we didn't have no tickets." And the guy said, "OJ, how are we going to get in?" He said, "This is my ticket right here. My ticket right here."
Bob Simon (39:30):
No, but I want you on-
Mauro Fiore (39:31):
And I told my wife, I said, "For me, knowing OJ and having hung out with him and drove him."
Bob Simon (39:35):
True.
Mauro Fiore (39:36):
"That son of a bitch, this was his ticket." They'd see his face, OJ was carte blanche anywhere in LA.
Carl Douglas (39:41):
I've gotten into the Hard Rock Cafe in New Orleans, seven o'clock on a Saturday night with seven of my buddies with my ticket.
Mauro Fiore (39:57):
Yeah. Because they say, "That's Carl Douglas."
Carl Douglas (39:57):
"Hey, it's hey." Literally, seven people, the Hard Rock Cafe in New Orleans. "Let's go, come on."
Mauro Fiore (39:59):
During Mardi Gras.
Carl Douglas (40:00):
Seven o'clock on a Saturday. "Come on in, let's go. We got a table, we'll find something for you." It's amazing.
Bob Simon (40:05):
Carl, as we wrap up, we usually ask the Bourbon of Proof, but we have tequila so we know what your drink is.
Carl Douglas (40:09):
Absolutely. I love it.
Bob Simon (40:09):
Clase Azul.
Carl Douglas (40:09):
Absolutely. I have three of them at my house.
Bob Simon (40:14):
Can you ring the bell? I can't do it.
Mauro Fiore (40:15):
I can't.
Bob Simon (40:16):
I can't do it. Stop. He's like pawing at his wife. This is what I see when we're on vacation. It's just awful.
Mauro Fiore (40:22):
Unfortunately, it's really bad.
Bob Simon (40:23):
But you're into... I mean you've done this for the right passion. You were here to help people when you left that job. Were you in DC when you're doing this?
Mauro Fiore (40:32):
Sure.
Bob Simon (40:32):
Leaving DC to come back to LA just to help people.
Mauro Fiore (40:34):
Sure.
Bob Simon (40:35):
And you've been driven with that purpose, that purpose. First of all, are you a happy human being?
Carl Douglas (40:44):
I tell people every day when they ask me how I'm doing that I'm blessed. I am now 69 years old last month, man. I am-
Bob Simon (40:56):
When were you born?
Carl Douglas (40:57):
May 8th, 1955.
Bob Simon (40:59):
My dad was April 16th, 1955. He's very proud to be 69 years old.
Carl Douglas (41:05):
I'm very proud.
Bob Simon (41:06):
He tells everybody he's 69.
Carl Douglas (41:06):
I tell everybody. I'm so proud.
Mauro Fiore (41:09):
Carl came to my 50th birthday.
Carl Douglas (41:09):
Yes.
Bob Simon (41:10):
I know, I saw him. We talked.
Carl Douglas (41:11):
I tell everybody.
Mauro Fiore (41:12):
I was very happy to see you there, Carl. Thank you for coming.
Carl Douglas (41:14):
No, absolutely, man. And at my age I am never going to retire because there is nothing I can conceive of that would give me the same rush as trying a case. Trying a case is the most fun you can have with a suit and tie on. You can have fun with a suit on, but a tie fucks things up.
Bob Simon (41:41):
I don't like ties.
Mauro Fiore (41:42):
Me neither.
Carl Douglas (41:43):
If trying a case is the same rush you get going down a mountain slope, it's the same rush you get driving a car fast on the freeway. I got my Tesla out there. It's the same rush you get seeing your name out in lights. And I have not found anything, Bob, that will duplicate the fun that I have of trying cases. I tell people, "Kobe was like the Carl Douglas of basketball." I dig the competition. I'm a competition freak. I like preparing crosses of a lying comp. I like practicing a closing argument though I've never practiced in front of another person except the first time I ever gave one.
Bob Simon (42:30):
It's funny, same thing with me. I hate practicing and I will never do it in front of anyone. I don't know why. I've never done it.
Carl Douglas (42:36):
I have never practiced in front of another person...
Bob Simon (42:38):
First time I did it.
Carl Douglas (42:38):
Except my first trial I gave and I had to give to the stand.
Bob Simon (42:40):
That my partner for my workforce, "Can you do this closer you're going to do?" And I was, I did it and I will never do it again.
Mauro Fiore (42:46):
Yeah, I'm the same way.
Bob Simon (42:47):
I don't know why. It's just...
Mauro Fiore (42:48):
I do it in the mirror or whatever, but I don't want to hear it.
Bob Simon (42:50):
I don't do it in the mirror. I don't know. It's just weird for me. But it's just empowering to hear this from... I mean if people are watching or listening to hear Carl Douglas, who's been one of the best trial lawyers for 40 years that still has the passion. Say I don't ski, I don't do these other things. But it's the same.
Carl Douglas (43:06):
It's a rush.
Bob Simon (43:07):
It's a rush. And don't, we talked before, but you were kind enough to drink on this episode, you rarely drink. This is your...
Carl Douglas (43:14):
Same destination, different route.
Bob Simon (43:16):
Yeah. But this is your-
Carl Douglas (43:17):
Same destination. I don't do the alcohol. My father died of alcoholism, so I get there another way.
Bob Simon (43:22):
Yeah, just trying cases, helping people.
Carl Douglas (43:24):
Yeah, that too.
Bob Simon (43:25):
That's crazy. How do you find... I mean we could probably talk 20 episodes about this.
Carl Douglas (43:32):
Oh, for sure.
Bob Simon (43:33):
Because this is fantastic stuff. And we love the Grand Walleye outfit that you got on.
Carl Douglas (43:38):
I like blue. Always blue on camera, man. They always say wear blue on camera they tell you.
Bob Simon (43:42):
Really?
Carl Douglas (43:42):
Yes.
Bob Simon (43:42):
I don't hear.
Carl Douglas (43:43):
It works best.
Bob Simon (43:44):
Here he's wearing fucking tiger shit.
Carl Douglas (43:45):
There you go.
Bob Simon (43:46):
What does your shirt say? What does it say?
Mauro Fiore (43:48):
This is Bocephus. That's Hank Williams Jr.
Bob Simon (43:50):
One of them's dead, the senior.
Mauro Fiore (43:52):
That's Hank senior. Hank Junior's still alive.
Carl Douglas (43:54):
Okay. You learn something today.
Bob Simon (43:55):
Yeah, he likes country. It's weird.
Mauro Fiore (43:56):
God bless.
Bob Simon (43:58):
He just says God bless.
Carl Douglas (43:59):
The Old 97. I remember. I remember.
Mauro Fiore (44:01):
Yeah. They're good. That's my band.
Bob Simon (44:04):
97. Well Carl Douglas, thank you for coming on. I mean obviously this is probably the most powerful episodes we've ever done and we're very esteemed to have you here.
Carl Douglas (44:10):
Thank you, guys.
Bob Simon (44:11):
Thank you for being like a champion for fucking everybody. Not even LA, but the country.
Carl Douglas (44:16):
Appreciate you.
Bob Simon (44:17):
We would love to see you across the nation trying cases to help folk. Because [inaudible 00:44:22]
Carl Douglas (44:22):
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Mauro Fiore (44:23):
Another 69 years.
Carl Douglas (44:24):
Look forward to it.
Bob Simon (44:25):
Yeah, we got to find him the alligator blood to live another 69 years. all right. Thanks, Carl.
Carl Douglas (44:30):
Thank you, guys.
Bob Simon (44:30):
This is cheers.
Carl Douglas (44:31):
To you.
Mauro Fiore (44:33):
I'm not going to fill my cup anymore.
Bob Simon (44:35):
Yeah, you keep filling everybody's cup.
