Bob Simon (00:00):
How do you guys operate that? Because a lot of laws are different for law firms and consumers. How does that work?
David Goins (00:05):
What we find is we get about 30,000 calls a week into our call center.
Bob Simon (00:09):
30,000 a week?
David Goins (00:09):
30,000 calls a week into our call center. And that's all across the country. And not everyone will have a valid claim, but those that do, we want to make sure that they have a voice in someone local who they can be transferred to.
(00:30):
We have a vested interest in outcome as well because we know that clients will stay if they're getting good results and they're going to get good results if they get good outcomes for the client. So it's kind of like the circle of life.
Bob Simon (00:55):
Welcome to this episode of Bourbon of Proof where we interview those who have been both successful at law and life, and we do so over several spirits. We've done tequila before. Mostly brown alcohol, right? To my esteemed co-host, Mauro Fiore.
Mauro Fiore (01:07):
Hello. Mauro Fiore here. We usually do bourbon, but we've had shows where we do tequila, we do wine, we've done-
Bob Simon (01:13):
We've never done wine.
Mauro Fiore (01:14):
Non-alcoholic. Didn't we do wine?
Bob Simon (01:15):
I know your favorite wine though.
Mauro Fiore (01:18):
I want to go to Boca Raton.
Bob Simon (01:20):
That's it. That's actually his favorite wine. But we're very, very excited to have on David Goins today. Came in from Texas. Flew in this morning. Yeah?
David Goins (01:27):
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Bob Simon (01:29):
Yeah. So you came in from where in Texas?
David Goins (01:31):
Dallas. North Dallas.
Bob Simon (01:32):
Fort Worth, or like-
David Goins (01:34):
It's called Colleyville. Kind of like suburbs. Originally from Rancho Bernardo, so it's a very similar vibe to Rancho Bernardo.
Mauro Fiore (01:41):
North Dallas is where North Texas State is. Denton, Texas.
David Goins (01:45):
Yep.
Bob Simon (01:46):
North Texas. Well, look at you. Well, we're going to always start off with a pour, because we're very excited to have David on because he's probably the master of what we call legal marketing. So he's operated in this space. We're going to talk about it, but their company's gone up a 10X during COVID. Just the amount of case captures they've been able to do and stuff that lawyers struggle a lot with. Would you agree lawyers struggle a lot with this?
David Goins (02:08):
Definitely. Yes.
Bob Simon (02:10):
So the first pour I bought for you, and this is from the Johnnie Walker. This is Walker Advertising for this Johnnie Walker, but this is the Johnnie Walker 5. This is their King George fifth edition. Hard to find. I don't know if you've ever had this one before.
Mauro Fiore (02:27):
No.
Bob Simon (02:28):
No. Usually everybody thinks that Johnnie Walker Blue is the highest, but it's probably this one or an aged one.
Mauro Fiore (02:33):
What's this one called? The George-
Bob Simon (02:34):
The King George V. The Johnnie Walker one.
Mauro Fiore (02:36):
Wowser.
Bob Simon (02:36):
Yeah. So this is the gold top. Yeah. This is definitely a different taste that Mauro and I are used to.
Mauro Fiore (02:42):
Are you a top, Bob, or a bottom?
Bob Simon (02:44):
I'm more of a power top.
Mauro Fiore (02:46):
You're a top. Okay, good. I like to know that.
Bob Simon (02:48):
Pass this over here to that one. Already this guy's starting. Let me top you off, my friend. All right. So David, thank you for coming in-
David Goins (03:01):
Yes. Thanks for having me.
Bob Simon (03:02):
From Texas today. To the King George V.
Mauro Fiore (03:11):
Definitely has a Scotch taste.
Bob Simon (03:13):
Johnnie Walker's more of-
Mauro Fiore (03:14):
Definitely very Scotchy.
Bob Simon (03:14):
A blended Scotch. Yeah. Definitely. So one thing we know is, I don't know if you know this Mauro, but David was actually born on the same day in the same year that Walker Advertising started.
Mauro Fiore (03:27):
Wow.
Bob Simon (03:27):
What was that date?
David Goins (03:28):
That's September 4th, 1984. So we're celebrating our 40th birthday this year.
Bob Simon (03:35):
And so are you.
David Goins (03:36):
Every time they update the website, I feel a little bit older, but yeah.
Bob Simon (03:40):
That's crazy. Do you know Walker's been around that long? Because we've been in LA a long time. They've been here for a long time.
Mauro Fiore (03:47):
I know that they've been around the business as long as I can remember, and I'm sure they were way before I could remember.
Bob Simon (03:55):
Mary Ann Walker was the founder of that. So explain to us what you do because the COO of the company.
David Goins (04:03):
I'm a vice president of sales, so I oversee all of our national efforts outside of California. So we've expanded pretty dramatically nationwide. We get calls nationwide, connect injury victims to local attorneys in all 50 states. It was started by Mary Ann in 1984. She was 19 years old at the time. She was court translator and just saw just a lack of access to justice within the Hispanic community and just saw an unmet need and they didn't have a voice and just began working with local attorneys to give them a voice and then that same mission has expanded over the last 40 years. So work with about 350 firms across the country.
Bob Simon (04:52):
But are you guys concentrated? A lot of people don't know. What happens is most lawyers are not good at the business of law. They're not good at the operations, they're not good at marketing themselves, and that's kind of where your company fills that gap for a lot of lawyers. When you say 350 law firms nationwide, I mean, is it state specific? How do you guys operate that? Because a lot of laws are different for law firms and consumers. How does that work?
David Goins (05:19):
Yeah. We deal mainly with motor vehicle accidents. What we find is we get about 30,000 calls a week into our call center.
Bob Simon (05:28):
30,000 a week?
David Goins (05:29):
30,000 calls a week into our call center. And that's all across the country and not everyone will have a valid claim, but those that do, we want to make sure that they have a voice in someone local who they can be transferred to and that's really what we do. A lot of it too, a lot of these people probably wouldn't contact an attorney if they didn't call us. From a law firm's perspective, it's unbranded. It's not delving into their personal brand, but these are people who, for whatever reason, that brand isn't resonating with them and maybe they don't know who to call. So that's the gap that we fill so they have someone to call next time.
Bob Simon (06:10):
But you guys, nationwide, but I think since COVID happened, most people were virtual at your company. So how does that work? 350 firms you're servicing, 30,000 calls a week. By the way, that's insane.
Mauro Fiore (06:23):
That's insane.
Bob Simon (06:24):
I mean, that's insane.
Mauro Fiore (06:25):
Yeah. I mean, I don't know. When I was a younger lawyer, I tried some of these different advertising companies and I don't know if it was the way it worked then or whatever, but I didn't really seem to get any really good return for my money on what I was doing, so I never did it again. I tried several of these referral companies. It didn't work for me, but I know lots of lawyers, it's working well for them.
Bob Simon (06:53):
That's all they do. A lot of lawyers that are friends with built their entire practices off working with your company. I mean, you guys have different brands, right?
David Goins (07:02):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (07:03):
So it's Walker, 1-800.
David Goins (07:05):
Los Defensores is our most well-known brand.
Bob Simon (07:08):
Yeah. Because Mary Ann was passionate about helping the underserved Hispanic community. We're going to get to your story, but just briefly touch on that Walker story, both 40 years old, from 1984 all the way up into the present. How does that workflow go through early '80s to '90s? I mean, he was the '90s and he just talks about how fucking great it was. All I hear about is the '90s was amazing.
Mauro Fiore (07:33):
'90s was the best time of my life for sure. '90s was awesome.
Bob Simon (07:38):
Yeah, whatever.
Mauro Fiore (07:39):
Best music, best everything. No fucking internet or no social media.
Bob Simon (07:45):
No air tags, where he's been.
Mauro Fiore (07:46):
You could do whatever the fuck you want. No one knew shit. I could say anything I wanted, no one would ... You know what I mean? It was a fucking great time to be a fucking raving lunatic like I am. Now I really have to tone it down because everyone will hear about what I said now. I got to keep quiet. But in the '90s you could do and say whatever the fuck you wanted. It was great.
Bob Simon (08:07):
Yeah. But you guys, I mean Walker, you dominated billboards, television. But I mean, how's that transition over 40 years? Because you got to be malleable. It's got to be different.
David Goins (08:17):
Just the media consumption has changed so much. So at one point it was 100% radio and TV because that's where the eyeballs and ears were. And then as consumer habits change, we adapt. And as more people are online, we want to make sure our ads are seen in front of them online in addition to TV or whatever else they're consuming. So it's really just following the eyeballs. So as people change, we try to adapt and make sure that they still have a means to contact an attorney.
Bob Simon (08:49):
How do you guys pinpoint that? Because we talked one of our friends earlier that put up his first billboard and it's like you're putting up your billboard for what return? Are you seeing immediate return on that? You're doing digital. Do you guys segment and say what's better than others? Do you-
David Goins (09:06):
It's really just everything. And a lot of it is to build a brand takes a lot of time and a lot of money, and we have a foothold in a lot of markets where we have the results now. So if we're getting calls and we're not lawyers, so if we can partner with firms, we have that motion already in place. And a lot of these firms during COVID, we'd see firms, "Okay. I got my license in these three states during COVID. I don't have a brand there. I don't have any market share there." Well, we have calls there, we have a brand there so we can help them establish a foothold in new markets. So that's a change that we've seen a lot since COVID.
Bob Simon (09:56):
During COVID, we branched out to other states in my firm. You're now in Washington, about to be in Arizona too.
Mauro Fiore (10:01):
Yeah, I into Washington during the pandemic. Now I'm going to Arizona.
Bob Simon (10:04):
But have you seen more of a national shift towards law firms since the pandemic? I mean, because you're in the space where I just want to ask because I don't even know.
David Goins (10:11):
I think the initial thing with COVID was a lot of people ran away and then a lot of people leaned in. And the ones who leaned in gained a lot of market share. And some of the early things we'd hear is people are scared to go and treat. That was the objection, but then the opportunity was also not everyone needed to come to ... They didn't want to come to the office to sign. So a lot of it created an opportunity for firms to expand beyond their local footprint into new markets, so I definitely do see-
Bob Simon (10:48):
A lot of lawyers that are watching or listening don't understand the big, big consumer data analytics of all of this. So when you're talking about them not coming into the office to sign, these different demographics, are you guys looking at large-scale studies? How are you coming up with these answers?
David Goins (11:06):
We do. We have a group of pretty smart people in market research and our marketing departments who can see what the tea leaves will show for the future. But the overall trend, from my perspective, it just seems like the world's gotten a lot flatter in the last four years.
Bob Simon (11:28):
So let's take our second pour. So this is your pour. You got to finish that, by the way. You can't babysit this. Not you, not you.
David Goins (11:32):
All right.
Bob Simon (11:33):
I'll drink mine too.
Mauro Fiore (11:39):
Yeah. I'm not a big fan of that Johnnie Walker.
Bob Simon (11:41):
No. And that's their best Johnnie Walker. In our industry, if somebody gives you Johnnie Walker Blue, what do you do with it?
Mauro Fiore (11:47):
Re-gift it.
Bob Simon (11:47):
Re-gift it.
David Goins (11:48):
Re-gift it to your secretary or-
Mauro Fiore (11:50):
I love it when I get those, man. I keep them all for Christmas. I give them all away. Because people know I drink bourbon, but people don't know the difference.
Bob Simon (11:57):
They think, "Oh, it costs a lot of money because it's Johnnie Walker Blue."
Mauro Fiore (12:00):
They see Johnnie Walker Blue and-
Bob Simon (12:00):
But you always have to open it to see does it have-
Mauro Fiore (12:02):
If there's a card in there.
Bob Simon (12:03):
A card in there.
Mauro Fiore (12:03):
Or if it's engraved.
Bob Simon (12:05):
If it's engraved. That's happened to me. I almost did it once. I was like, "Shit. I can't re-gift this."
Mauro Fiore (12:08):
Yeah. One time I tried to re-gift one of and-
Bob Simon (12:10):
By the way, I respect ... Look at the Sugar Bear. Sugar Smacks Bear.
Mauro Fiore (12:13):
Yeah. Now I think if you go to the supermarket, they don't have Sugar Smacks anymore.
Bob Simon (12:17):
Yes they do. They have Golden Grahams, Sugar-
Mauro Fiore (12:19):
No. They called it something else now because it's bad. When I was a kid, it was called Sugar Smacks, but now, they can't have no Sugar Smacks with all these people now. They would burn the bear. It's got to be called like Bear Smacks or something.
Bob Simon (12:33):
You just switched the words around.
Mauro Fiore (12:34):
I don't know. It's not called Sugar Smacks anymore, but I was-
Bob Simon (12:37):
Why can't you call it Sugar Smacks?
Mauro Fiore (12:39):
Because it's not politically correct.
Bob Simon (12:40):
What's not politically correct about Sugar Smacks?
Mauro Fiore (12:42):
You can't be feeding kids sugar now.
Bob Simon (12:42):
Yeah, okay.
Mauro Fiore (12:46):
You know how people are.
Bob Simon (12:48):
I know how people are. But I like sugar smacks. They're good. They get soggy a little quick. What's your favorite cereal, David? That's a good question.
David Goins (12:55):
I'm not a big cereal guy.
Bob Simon (12:56):
No, but you were as a kid. Everybody was a kid.
David Goins (12:58):
As a kid, I liked Basic 4, which I know is a weird.
Bob Simon (13:01):
Really?
Mauro Fiore (13:01):
What the ...
David Goins (13:02):
I liked Basic 4.
Bob Simon (13:03):
That's a weird answer.
David Goins (13:03):
I watched GI Joe's and eat Basic 4. That was my morning routine.
Bob Simon (13:07):
This is going to ... What's yours?
Mauro Fiore (13:08):
Listen, mine is what ... There is only one be all and end all for cereal and it's fucking Froot Loops. That's it.
Bob Simon (13:17):
No. God. That's so stupid.
Mauro Fiore (13:19):
Froot Loops will always be the greatest.
Bob Simon (13:20):
I'm a Frosted Mini Wheats. Not the minis, the mini wheats. I cut them in half. And I'd put sugar. We used to have sugar. We'd have sugar barrels, so we would have sugar cereal and then we'd put sugar on top of the sugar cereal and that's-
Mauro Fiore (13:31):
I never put more sugar on my Froot Loops, but I was a big Toucan Sam fan when I was a kid. Toucan Sam would say, "Follow my nose. It always knows."
Bob Simon (13:40):
Yeah. And I've seen him at parties late night in LA and he still lives by that.
Mauro Fiore (13:43):
My nose used to once in a while find a truffle here and there.
Bob Simon (13:47):
The second truffle joke of the day, by the way. But Dave, why don't you show us what you got here.
David Goins (13:50):
Yeah. So this bottle as I've been in Texas a couple years, this is from Garrison Brothers, which is in the hill country, and this is their ... It was aged four years in white oak and then another year in an additional barrel. So two barrels, five years. They call it Texas candy. So it'll probably be a little sweeter.
Bob Simon (14:16):
I love it.
Mauro Fiore (14:16):
Texas hill country's beautiful, man. You ever been up to the hills?
David Goins (14:18):
And I did monogram it with bourbon proof so you can't give that away.
Bob Simon (14:21):
Yeah, I'm excited about this. Look at this. You see this, Mauro?
Mauro Fiore (14:24):
Yeah. See, this guy's a classy man. He monogrammed it so now you can't give it away.
Bob Simon (14:30):
Well, we can drink it.
Mauro Fiore (14:31):
We can drink it.
Bob Simon (14:32):
We have a saying around us, David, is if it's open, we drink it. We open a lot. I asked my dad yesterday, we were doing something I said, "How many bottles do you have?" He said, "I have 187 bottles in my house." I said, "Dad, what are you keeping track?" He's like, "Well, that's what's open. I just keep track of what's open and then we got to drink it eventually." He's 187.
Mauro Fiore (14:47):
Your dad is a man-
Bob Simon (14:48):
Oh, look how dark this is.
Mauro Fiore (14:49):
A man among boys. Now, I went to a party the other night, Bob. A friend of ours got-
Bob Simon (14:54):
You don't say.
Mauro Fiore (14:54):
A friend of ours got a big award over at Southwestern Law School. A guest on Bourbon of Proof, Arash Homampour. He got the Alumni of the Year Award from Southwestern.
Bob Simon (15:05):
Cheers. This looks fantastic.
Mauro Fiore (15:08):
So Arash's friend had a little after-party for him after the awards ceremony. We went back to the house and I walk in there, I was like, "Man, this-"
Bob Simon (15:16):
Oh my God, this is 10 times better than what we just had.
Mauro Fiore (15:17):
I walked in there, I was like, "This is amazing."
Bob Simon (15:19):
For a fourth of the cost.
Mauro Fiore (15:21):
Arash's friend just had a whole wall of Weller shit. Pappy's 23 Years, just craziness. So I was like, "Oh man." And the guy's like, "You want to try something?" I said, "Yeah. Can we try that 23?" He's like, "Oh, no problem."
Bob Simon (15:33):
No way.
Mauro Fiore (15:34):
Nicest guy in the world. A guy named Fabian. God bless you, Fabian. Thanks for the bourbon. It was amazing. What a party. I stayed late. We drank that almost a whole bottle of 23.
Bob Simon (15:44):
I never got a call.
David Goins (15:47):
I have a funny Pappy 23 story. I actually almost brought that.
Mauro Fiore (15:51):
Oh, this is so much better than Johnnie Walker.
David Goins (15:53):
I almost brought Pappy 23, but my bottle's open and according to TSA, I can't travel with it.
Bob Simon (16:01):
I have a bottle or two of Pappy 23 at my house. Both are open. You have to drink it.
David Goins (16:06):
You have to.
Bob Simon (16:07):
I think it's stupid not to. But David, tell us your story, because as a non-lawyer getting into this space, coming from a different background to start, what gave you the passion to get into what you're doing now?
David Goins (16:18):
Yeah, yeah. Great question. Out of college, I worked for a company called Law Info that was purchased by Thomson Reuters. So was there about a decade working with the same kind of firms. Actually worked in the San Diego territory for a while. I think the first time I saw you was at a CASD award ceremony where you had a pretty cool Anchorman video firm.
Bob Simon (16:45):
That was the last time I shaved, by the way. Everything but the mustache I shaved for that video. That was funny because that was-
Mauro Fiore (16:51):
Was that the one that we went to with Min and Jeff Greenman?
Bob Simon (16:53):
We went to the one after that year. No, that was a fun ... We went to a-
Mauro Fiore (16:58):
If Greenman's wife's watching, he wasn't there.
Bob Simon (17:01):
He's not watching. He's somewhere else on the planet right now. No, but because you were a San Diego guy for 10 years.
David Goins (17:08):
Yeah. Born and raised San Diego. There for first 38 years of my life.
Bob Simon (17:13):
Wow.
David Goins (17:13):
Yeah. Still a Padre fan. Always be a Charger fan. I pretend they're still in San Diego.
Bob Simon (17:18):
I think most people do.
Mauro Fiore (17:20):
I'm a Chargers fan myself. I hate the Rams. I like the Chargers if I'm going to root for any-
Bob Simon (17:24):
I'm the same. If I'm going to root for an LA team, it's the Chargers.
Mauro Fiore (17:26):
Yeah. I'm an Arizona Cardinals fan, as most people know. Unfortunately, I've been a Cardinals fan my whole life. But if I'm going to root for an LA team, it's going to be the Chargers, not the Rams for sure.
Bob Simon (17:37):
But I mean, as a San Diego ... You're in North County, San Diego, right? You're Rancho Bernardo.
David Goins (17:41):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (17:42):
So Law-Di-Gras this year is going to be Rancho Bernardo. We have to see you there. We have a-
David Goins (17:45):
That was our date spot at RBN. Used to have a restaurant called El Biscocho. We used to always go there.
Bob Simon (17:51):
So last year at Law-Di-Gras, I've never seen Mauro be so drunk in his life.
Mauro Fiore (17:55):
That was the drunkest I've ever been in my life. I mean, I've been that drunk probably before, but not in the last 10 years.
Bob Simon (18:01):
Not in public.
Mauro Fiore (18:04):
I stole a golf cart from the hotel. I crashed the golf cart and then I ended up sleeping on the floor in Bob's room in my underwear. And Bob has a picture of it.
Bob Simon (18:17):
Stop. I actually do. I forgot. I have to find that picture.
Mauro Fiore (18:20):
Yeah. And then my wife got that-
Bob Simon (18:21):
Wait, wait. We got to stop because you have to start when you stole a golf cart. Because I didn't know that you stole a fucking golf cart. I know how the night started that night.
Mauro Fiore (18:30):
I stole a golf cart. Yeah. So I stole a golf cart after whoever was playing the band was playing on Friday. Or no, you had a DJ or something Friday, right?
Bob Simon (18:39):
Yeah. DJ Rich, man. She was crushing.
Mauro Fiore (18:40):
I stole a golf cart. I crashed it. I rolled out of it onto the sidewalk. Then I went into Bob's room. Well actually, me and Bob were sharing a two-story suite at the Rancho Bernardo Inn. My room was upstairs and Bob was downstairs. I couldn't make it up the stairs. I just passed out in my underwear and Bob's room on the floor. And I just remember waking up at five in the morning with my wife was pouring bottles of water on me to wake me up.
Bob Simon (19:05):
This is true.
Mauro Fiore (19:05):
And Bob took a bunch of pictures of me in my chonies, and I think you sent them around.
Bob Simon (19:11):
You know what, at a very strategic time in your life, I'm going to send those around.
Mauro Fiore (19:15):
But that was as bad as I ... I drink a little.
Bob Simon (19:20):
A little of a lot.
Mauro Fiore (19:21):
But to get that drunk is pretty rare.
Bob Simon (19:23):
Well, the reason was because we brought a Boss Hog there. The big Boss Hog. And it's very high proof but you don't taste it. And we probably drank almost a whole bottle and it was-
Mauro Fiore (19:34):
Oh yeah, we were in the room. Me and you and-
Bob Simon (19:36):
See, now he's coming back to it.
Mauro Fiore (19:37):
Now I remember. The Rancho Bernardo Inn is pretty awesome.
Bob Simon (19:41):
It is.
Mauro Fiore (19:42):
What a great venue.
Bob Simon (19:42):
But that's one of the best places to live in America, that area. But you grew up there. I mean, how do you have the hunger to now work? I mean, really, because we're afraid to grow our kids here in Southern California, but you grew up in the most beautiful part of Southern California.
David Goins (19:59):
It's hard to leave. It was more decision of, we have three kids, only grandkids on both sides. So my wife's folks are in Dallas, and with COVID and everything being so flat and virtual, we just made the decision this is a better place to raise the kids.
Bob Simon (20:17):
But being now in this flat national society, you must travel a lot.
David Goins (20:23):
I do. Yeah.
Bob Simon (20:24):
So how do you balance three kids? Oldest 13, youngest is like three, four.
David Goins (20:29):
Youngest is actually one.
Bob Simon (20:30):
One. Fuck.
David Goins (20:31):
We actually found out we were pregnant the week we moved out to Dallas. Have a good dispersion of ages. 13, four and one.
Bob Simon (20:41):
Wow.
David Goins (20:41):
So keeping me busy.
Mauro Fiore (20:43):
I have a daughter that's 14 years older than my son. So yeah, it's good dynamic because I have a built in babysitter. It's pretty nice.
Bob Simon (20:53):
His oldest daughter's going to be 21 in September.
Mauro Fiore (20:54):
21 in September.
Bob Simon (20:55):
21 in September. But a lot of people don't realize that ... People think that you get stuck in this geographic area. This is who you're going to do, what you're going to represent. And they don't realize there's a whole world outside of your local bar. I mean, the first time I went outside of our Los Angeles bar, I was like, "Holy shit. There's a whole more diverse group of lawyers and things that we can work together." But that's what I think what Walker can do to bring people together. But you work with 350 firms. Are there states that you avoid? I always want to ask you this.
David Goins (21:27):
There aren't states that we avoid. I would say that the lion's share of our clients is where the population is. So the more populous, dense areas, Texas, Florida, New York, Illinois, those are always going to have more people, more growing Hispanic communities and we're going to have more clients. But yeah, we have clients in most states. And Dallas has actually been a blessing because it's a two hour flight to pretty much anywhere in the country.
Bob Simon (21:58):
Well, that's for a live, but I feel like I've been there many times and it's so big and spread out. So from Dallas to Fort Worth, it seems like it's two different states almost. Right? I mean, it's completely-
Mauro Fiore (22:11):
Well, from Dallas to Austin, it's like different countries.
Bob Simon (22:13):
Different countries.
Mauro Fiore (22:14):
But Dallas is still very old, conservative, very right wing America.
Bob Simon (22:23):
Fort Worth, but yeah.
Mauro Fiore (22:23):
And then you go to Austin and Austin's like the Republic of Austin. It's like California. It's super liberal, super progressive.
Bob Simon (22:32):
But do you guys, when you do your marketing ... I'm always interested in this because you're doing such dialed in, big level, big data marketing. How granular do you guys get on where you're going to market and how you're going to do it? It has to be big.
David Goins (22:49):
We'll advertise nationally and locally. So we want to be everywhere where the eyeballs are. So we do get good national buys that we do across the country, English and Spanish, but we also do localized advertising as well. So we'll go as far as we have local office suites in certain locations, and we we'll have on the street marketing as well as radio or digital and TV. So we really just try to have as much market share as we can. But it does vary depending on the state, whereas some states, firms don't handle statewide so we'll have local attorneys. Texas, we have about 50 clients.
Bob Simon (23:37):
I was going to say it's a huge state.
David Goins (23:38):
In Texas, because it's the same thing. They may not have a doctor network in Austin if they're in Houston.
Bob Simon (23:46):
But how much do you pay attention to the success of the lawyer or law firm that you're working with? Because I feel like you're being altruistic about it. It's from client call comes in and there's a point of success. How interested are you in the success story of that client and how does it match?
David Goins (24:05):
It does. And part of the juggling act is being a consumer-facing brand. Because we have a responsibility to the consumer that we're connecting them to a qualified good attorney but also we want to make sure that the attorney is getting value in the case as well. The reality is our program doesn't work for subpar attorneys. It works for the best of the best. And we are competing on quality. We're not competing on anything other than that. So the program's going to work for the best attorneys who get the best results.
Bob Simon (24:42):
So let's get into ... Well, you guys are lagging a little bit, but David, who are the dirtbags in the industry that you do not work with? I want to ask Mauro's questions. You can't imagine Mauro-
Mauro Fiore (24:57):
This episode's hard for me because I have lots of opinions on this stuff, but I'm not going to say them on this episode.
Bob Simon (25:03):
Look at him. Sugar Smacks.
Mauro Fiore (25:05):
After this, when the cameras aren't rolling, I could tell you a lot of stuff that I've seen in the last 30 years.
Bob Simon (25:09):
Well, I'll just speak out.
Mauro Fiore (25:12):
The last 30 years.
Bob Simon (25:13):
There's a lot of lawyers that are just acquiring leads from a lot of folks and doing very bad things. So we've heard horror stories of it. It's not Walker, it's some other folks. But how do you prevent against the bad players in our industry doing those things? Because you guys are a big national brand, probably the biggest. How do you protect against that?
David Goins (25:32):
Yeah. I mean, we've fired clients before. And the reality is there is an aspect of-
Bob Simon (25:38):
When you say client, these are law firms.
David Goins (25:39):
Law firms. Law firms. So there is an element of we don't want to help people find a babysitter on Craigslist. There's an assumption it's our brand as well. So people will leave us reviews based upon their experience with the law firm and we're not the law firm.
Bob Simon (25:59):
How long have you been there? 10 years?
David Goins (26:01):
I've been there a little over five years.
Bob Simon (26:02):
Wow. Five years.
David Goins (26:03):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (26:04):
Holy shit. You've been there right before COVID and then it hits.
David Goins (26:07):
Right before COVID. Yeah.
Bob Simon (26:07):
So you're supposed to be in San Diego proper and you're-
Mauro Fiore (26:10):
It's funny that he mentions Craigslist because I've had this-
Bob Simon (26:14):
Here we go.
Mauro Fiore (26:14):
I've had this conversation with several people recently.
Bob Simon (26:17):
Mauro actually found his tour guide in Africa on Craigslist, if you watched that episode.
Mauro Fiore (26:21):
Yeah, of course. But-
Bob Simon (26:22):
Of course.
Mauro Fiore (26:24):
I wasn't aware that the younger people, when I say something like, "Oh, I found this on Craigslist," they're like, "You use Craigslist?" They're shocked that I use Craigslist. It's like, is it for old people? Because I like Craigslist and eBay and people are like ... My secretary sometimes, or my receptionist in my office, I'll get a package and it'll have the tape on it that says eBay or whatever. She's like, "You buy shit on eBay. Who the fuck uses eBay?" I said, "Shit. I've been using them for 30 years." And same thing, I use eBay and Craigslist and I'm considered like a dinosaur. Nobody uses these things anymore?
Bob Simon (26:58):
But I mean, you look at their target audience. I don't know the answer, but where are they? Are they on Craigslist? Are they on-
David Goins (27:04):
No, no, no. I was more so saying that where-
Bob Simon (27:05):
I don't know.
David Goins (27:07):
We don't want to do that because you don't want to refer someone ... It says something about you as well. So we want to make sure that we're referring consumers to good attorneys who are getting good results for them. Because we have a vested interest in outcome as well, because we know that clients will stay if they're getting good results and they're going to get good results if they get good outcomes for the client. So it's kind of like the circle of life.
Bob Simon (27:35):
Yeah. So let's do it with this last pour here. Get the Quite Man because you're usually the silent killer here so I picked the Quiet Man for you. Mauro's going to tell you a little bit more about it.
Mauro Fiore (27:49):
Well, this is in a different language. [foreign language 00:27:52].
Bob Simon (27:53):
This is your eyes. That just says on fire, bro. No, it doesn't. I can't read it.
Mauro Fiore (27:57):
I don't know. Some kind of different language. The Quiet Man. Blended Irish whiskey.
Bob Simon (28:02):
It's Irish whiskey.
Mauro Fiore (28:03):
Oak bourbon cast mature. So bourbon cast, an Irish whiskey.
Bob Simon (28:09):
So this is going to be a different taste between these two. It's like the middle of a bourbon and a proper.
Mauro Fiore (28:15):
As a Quiet Man, or as we say in Irish, [foreign language 00:28:18]. Oh, so [foreign language 00:28:21] means quiet man in ... Irish is a different language?
David Goins (28:25):
Gaelic.
Mauro Fiore (28:26):
Oh, Gaelic.
David Goins (28:26):
The Quiet Man was the John Wayne movie, right?
Bob Simon (28:28):
That's right.
Mauro Fiore (28:31):
I didn't know they had their own language.
Bob Simon (28:32):
So I've seen you around, David, and I feel like you're the quiet voice of reason in the room a lot of the times. No. You did a heavy pour.
Mauro Fiore (28:42):
I'm a little heavy-handed today.
Bob Simon (28:45):
But we see a lot in the industry being into a lot of conferences, speaking to a lot of folks, you see a lot of animated knuckleheads. I feel like you're the voice of reason in a lot of these rooms. You could sit in ... Like the Theodore Roosevelt, walk quietly, big stick. Is that how it goes?
Mauro Fiore (29:01):
Walk quietly and carry a big stick.
Bob Simon (29:02):
That's it. God, I knew you'd be good for that. But I feel like The Quiet Man is for you, my friend.
David Goins (29:08):
Thank you.
Bob Simon (29:09):
In Gaelic, it is what Mauro cannot pronounce. Not bad.
Mauro Fiore (29:15):
Bob, have you announced our Bourbon of Proof tour of Ireland next year?
Bob Simon (29:20):
Well, I guess you just did.
Mauro Fiore (29:21):
Yep. I let the cat out of the bag again. God damn.
Bob Simon (29:24):
We haven't even started. We haven't picked a date yet. You're just fucking announcing shit.
Mauro Fiore (29:27):
But I'm going to Scotland to scout locations.
Bob Simon (29:30):
So Mauro is, as part of his tax write-off adventure, is going to go to Scotland and Ireland to write off a tour in September.
Mauro Fiore (29:39):
I'm going to scout locations.
Bob Simon (29:40):
Scout locations. This is one of the ones we want to do because this is not a very ... It's not as peaty as this. It's in between these two, but it's-
Mauro Fiore (29:48):
This reminds me of like the Lagavulin. That kind of shit give you heartburn bad.
Bob Simon (29:53):
Yeah. Can't do it.
Mauro Fiore (29:54):
This is good.
Bob Simon (29:55):
Yeah. We'll do a formal announcement of Ireland, which we're putting together, which would be very nice. But do you have any Irish blood in you?
David Goins (30:03):
I don't.
Bob Simon (30:04):
Wow.
David Goins (30:05):
Yeah. That's sad.
Mauro Fiore (30:07):
What are you?
David Goins (30:07):
English.
Mauro Fiore (30:08):
English?
David Goins (30:09):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (30:10):
Just English?
David Goins (30:11):
I've literally ran into someone with my last name twice in my life.
Bob Simon (30:15):
Really?
David Goins (30:16):
One is Trevor Goins at-
Bob Simon (30:17):
I know Trevor.
David Goins (30:19):
NTL. Everyone's always like-
Bob Simon (30:20):
I've talked to Trevor-
David Goins (30:21):
Is that my brother?
Bob Simon (30:22):
20 times today.
David Goins (30:22):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (30:23):
20 times today I've talked to Trevor.
Mauro Fiore (30:24):
Where's he from?
Bob Simon (30:25):
He actually is in Arkansas or something. I don't know where he's ... But we text and email all the time.
Mauro Fiore (30:31):
Is he PLR?
Bob Simon (30:32):
He runs commerce management stuff so we talk a lot about a lot of things. He's an awesome dude. He was just at Bark Linear's conference last week. You'd probably recognize him if you saw him. But you guys are not related?
David Goins (30:43):
We're not. No.
Bob Simon (30:45):
That's wild. I was going to ask you that question. You guys not know each other? There's only one other Mauro Fiore, but he's a cinematographer that Mauro signs his awards for him.
Mauro Fiore (30:56):
He's an Academy Award-winning cinematographer. He was the cinematographer ... What's that movie where people are blue?
Bob Simon (31:04):
Avatar.
Mauro Fiore (31:05):
Avatar. He won an Academy Award for that movie. And then I live in Hollywood.
Bob Simon (31:11):
I bet he didn't drink Sugar Smacks though.
Mauro Fiore (31:12):
No.
Bob Simon (31:12):
No.
Mauro Fiore (31:13):
I live in Hollywood and they figure fuck, they do enough internet research they find my address in Hollywood. I live in Hollywood Hills up by the Hollywood Bowl. And people send me Avatar shit to sign and stuff and I sign it, I send it back to them. I don't want to hurt their feelings. I autograph shit for Mauro Fiore, who lives in fucking New Mexico.
Bob Simon (31:34):
I think it's Oklahoma.
Mauro Fiore (31:35):
I know where he lives. He lives in New Mexico in Albuquerque.
Bob Simon (31:38):
So David, you travel a lot for this industry for what you do. With the balance of life. We talk a lot with people that have toured the circuit and stuff like this because you have a one and eight ... How old's the oldest? 13?
David Goins (31:52):
13.
Bob Simon (31:52):
13. A 12 year span. How are you able to do that? I know you're a super dad, you're there for all your kids' sports. I know your oldest son's big in basketball. How do you balance that shit?
David Goins (32:04):
Just being hyper intentional. Travel is time away from family, so has to serve a purpose. And be selective and be able to say no to a lot of stuff I think is important. But also, a certain element just comes with the life we chose to some extent.
Bob Simon (32:23):
So when you came in the life you chose in 2019, did you anticipate one, moving to Texas?
David Goins (32:31):
I foresaw COVID. I knew that would happen.
Bob Simon (32:33):
Wow. You should have told a lot more people. That'd have been nice. Mauro foresees a lot of weird stuff.
Mauro Fiore (32:39):
Yes, I do. I'm a-
Bob Simon (32:40):
Like 6:00 AM raids on houses, things like this. He knows it's coming.
Mauro Fiore (32:43):
I know it's coming.
Bob Simon (32:47):
He's like the earthquake whisperer.
David Goins (32:49):
Yeah. COVID was actually really good in terms of what we have done at Walker. I think a lot of our growth just came from building a fully remote team was actually a blessing in disguise because it allowed us to be hyper intentional in terms of building a remote culture, I think, which was huge for us.
Bob Simon (33:12):
How do you build that? Because we're all remote at our firm too, and it's hard to build that remote culture. I feel like we do a very good job with it. But I noticed that you guys have offices. I always assumed you were in San Diego, but I guess you're not now, but you had a Torrance one. You guys have ones in Dallas, Austin, and other places. How are you able to build ... You guys have a lot of employees, 350 other law firms. How are you able to build that remote culture?
David Goins (33:35):
Yeah. I mean we have about 250 employees. At least 50% of them are remote. The rest work out of Torrance.
Bob Simon (33:44):
Where in Torrance are you guys located?
David Goins (33:45):
We're on Hamilton.
Bob Simon (33:47):
I don't know where that is.
David Goins (33:48):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (33:49):
I feel like you know LA more than anybody.
Mauro Fiore (33:51):
I don't know Torrance much. I stay out of the South Bay.
Bob Simon (33:53):
To your peril.
Mauro Fiore (33:54):
To my peril.
Bob Simon (33:56):
I'm trying to get him to move next door. I feel like it'd be a nice-
Mauro Fiore (33:58):
I'd love to move over there. My wife says it's too cold at the beach.
Bob Simon (34:00):
Yeah. She's should come right now. It's been quite hot. She likes scorching weather, like 110 plus.
Mauro Fiore (34:05):
She's like a lizard.
David Goins (34:05):
She should move Dallas. It was 100 degrees on Monday.
Mauro Fiore (34:08):
Yeah, but that humidity in Dallas that's shit.
David Goins (34:10):
She can't do that. Yeah.
Mauro Fiore (34:11):
Yeah, but you know ... What was I going to say?
Bob Simon (34:15):
You don't remember.
Mauro Fiore (34:16):
I forgot.
Bob Simon (34:17):
This guy's like a movie memento. He's got to get a tattoo to remember where he was five minutes ago.
Mauro Fiore (34:22):
I forgot what I was going to say. Oh, well. It'll come to me.
Bob Simon (34:24):
It will not come to him. But we were talking about culture and community that you're building.
Mauro Fiore (34:28):
Oh, now I remember.
Bob Simon (34:29):
Oh, here we go.
Mauro Fiore (34:31):
We have lots of remote employees now at my office. We've embraced the ... I have a young office COO and she's implemented lots of these things and I'm along for the ride. I don't want to hold back from innovation and things. But just I think last Thursday I called one of my remote employees at two in the afternoon and this is the first time I've ever called this particular employee. I always send her emails. She responds. But I needed an answer to a question pretty quickly so I called her at two in the afternoon and man, I know for sure I woke her up. She's like, "Hello, hello." It's like, "Hey, it's Mauro." "Oh, hey." I know I woke her up. So it's like that kind of shit bothers me. Because I know she was fucking sleeping.
Bob Simon (35:16):
But if she's being responsive on email ... Is she answering calls for your firm?
Mauro Fiore (35:20):
Yeah. I mean, I don't get complaints about her, but I know she was snoozing. I know it. So it' just like-
Bob Simon (35:26):
This guy's a tyrant. A tyrant.
Mauro Fiore (35:28):
Yeah. I mean, listen, I always say if you can't work for me, it'd be hard for you to work anywhere because I'm pretty easygoing.
Bob Simon (35:35):
You are very good to your employees.
Mauro Fiore (35:36):
I'm good to my employees. I'm pretty easygoing. Do your fucking job and that's it. Especially in what I do, because I really have no life experience whatsoever other than being a personal injury lawyer. I graduated from law school when I was 23 years old. In law school I had a few shitty jobs as a limo driver for my dad.
Bob Simon (35:55):
And for OJ, apparently.
Mauro Fiore (35:56):
I used to drive for OJ. I worked at El Torito.
Bob Simon (36:00):
You were at El Torito?
Mauro Fiore (36:02):
Yeah. I was a bartender at El Torito in Marina Del Rey.
Bob Simon (36:07):
What?
Mauro Fiore (36:07):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (36:07):
I actually know that's not there anymore.
Mauro Fiore (36:07):
Did it close?
Bob Simon (36:08):
I think it closed.
Mauro Fiore (36:09):
Yeah. Me and my roommate Eli, we used to work there. He used to make table-side guacamole.
Bob Simon (36:12):
Is that how you know that sushi chef? Where was he at?
Mauro Fiore (36:14):
No, he went to junior college with me. Kenji. Kenji.
Bob Simon (36:18):
So if Mauro ever invites you to party, go, because he usually gets Kenji, who's the best sushi chef in America. This guy's cutting-
Mauro Fiore (36:24):
The best.
Bob Simon (36:24):
I mean, I don't understand how he gets there.
Mauro Fiore (36:25):
I mean, he's come to my house and Kenji would bring a five pound slab toro that he just got from the fish market and we'll just chop it up in my kitchen and just eat it. It's the best. So I have no experience other than being a lawyer. And I worked at a bunch of law firms, PI firms. Got treated like a fucking dog by people. You know how shitty most employers are? All the lawyers I worked for treated me so bad. Literally browbeat, treated like shit. So then when I opened my own office, I decided I wasn't going to have that kind of culture. And I'm so good to my employees and stuff and the fact that some of them still fucking complain, I always think ... I was telling my office manager the other day, I was like, "If these people complain about what we do here, they would've worked at some of the firms I worked at, they would've killed themselves." The way that-
Bob Simon (37:16):
But it's a different world now. So when you guys have so many virtual employees, how are you building that self-worth and confidence and community?
David Goins (37:23):
For me, it's a lot of leading from the front lines. I tell my sales managers, you want to be General Patton and Rambo.
Bob Simon (37:33):
Oh, I like that.
David Goins (37:34):
Because I think there's credibility of them seeing what you're doing and being a servant leader and leading by example and creating a culture for me of wanting to make sure that everyone ... I have 17 people in eight different states and it's largely making sure that they feel empowered but not orphaned and making sure that they have the tools that they need, they feel supported. But in terms of what they're doing, making sure that we hire slow and make sure we have the right team members. And I call it the it factor, trademark pending, of-
Bob Simon (38:16):
Yeah, I feel like you're not going to get that one.
David Goins (38:18):
I probably won't get it. But integrity, intellectual capacity or curiosity and tenacity. And if I can trust you and you're going to work hard and you're curious, you're going to succeed.
Mauro Fiore (38:32):
Yeah. I think tenacity is the most underrated-
Bob Simon (38:35):
But you can't teach that. You can interview and you can understand it, but you can't teach that.
Mauro Fiore (38:40):
Yeah. Tenacity's number one. I just remember the first time I ever saw my son Max play any type of organized team sport, I think it was like basketball or something, he's like three years old. And he was a fucking animal. Fouling, biting, scratching, knocking players over.
Bob Simon (38:58):
Yeah. Law firm owners out there, hire the biter. If somebody fouled out for a career ... No, for real. These are people that work hard.
Mauro Fiore (39:04):
And I told my wife, "This makes me so happy to see this kid is an animal." You know what I mean? She's like, "What's wrong with you?" I said, "That what I just saw this kid do doesn't-"
Bob Simon (39:14):
I think Max walked into your bedroom one night and saw his dad was a biter.
Mauro Fiore (39:18):
Yeah. No, I'm just saying, I told my wife, I said, "What I just saw this kid do-"
Bob Simon (39:20):
That might get edited out, might not. We'll see.
Mauro Fiore (39:23):
Is something you can't teach you. Either you have it or you don't. He's a fucking beast. Competitive, tenacious animal. And that's exactly what you can't teach and that's a great quality.
Bob Simon (39:32):
Yeah. Well, cheers. Well, David, we're wrapping up the end of the episode here. So the last thing we always like to ask our guests here is ... I know my answer is pretty easy on this one, but what is your bourbon of proof? We went around different genres here, three different types of tastes of the world. What is your bourbon of proof here?
David Goins (39:50):
Yeah. Not to be a homer, I think the Texas one.
Bob Simon (39:53):
I think it's a clear winner.
Mauro Fiore (39:54):
I'm definitely winning.
Bob Simon (39:56):
So can we have one more pour of the Texan Garrison Brothers whiskey? Yeah. I need to clear my palate of the other Irish whiskeys and the King George.
Mauro Fiore (40:03):
I mean, I don't know what these people drink.
Bob Simon (40:04):
The stupid expensive bottle at the end here with the gold cap.
Mauro Fiore (40:06):
People drink these Irish whiskeys, man. They got a dead tongue or something.
Bob Simon (40:13):
That's a delicacy in a lot of places.
Mauro Fiore (40:14):
It's just horrible.
Bob Simon (40:15):
David, thanks for coming on to this episode of Bourbon of Proof. Thank you for bringing this.
Mauro Fiore (40:19):
Bob, a lot of people have said that you've gone nose-deaf at times. Are you? Can you-
Bob Simon (40:25):
I actually don't ... I don't-
Mauro Fiore (40:26):
Can you still smell or you've gone nose-deaf?
Bob Simon (40:29):
Is this a joke I don't get?
Mauro Fiore (40:30):
Forget it.
Bob Simon (40:32):
I feel like this is something I don't get.
Mauro Fiore (40:33):
You don't get it.
Bob Simon (40:34):
I don't get it.
Mauro Fiore (40:34):
I'll tell you about it later. I'll tell you about it in Spain.
Bob Simon (40:37):
In Spain. So Mauro and I are going to spend a month together in Spain where I'm going to document every single one. He is sleeping in the pool while his son's trying to swim. Max will be drowning. He'll be asleep at the ledge. This is the thing.
Mauro Fiore (40:47):
You know what? This time I swear I'm going to drink four espressos every day to keep from you getting any fucking video on me.
Bob Simon (40:54):
He'll drink his Bang Energy, whatever. He'll fall asleep at the wheel drinking it.
Mauro Fiore (40:58):
No.
Bob Simon (40:58):
Dave, thanks for coming on from Texas.
David Goins (41:00):
Yeah. Thank for having me.
Bob Simon (41:01):
Cheers.
David Goins (41:01):
All right.
Mauro Fiore (41:01):
Cheers. Thanks for bringing-
Bob Simon (41:03):
This one's way better.
Mauro Fiore (41:04):
Awesome.
