Jakob Norman (00:00):
What I say is try the lie. If you can try the lie, you're going to win every single time. Try the lie. We trial by human, we talk about and we train and we love to tell human stories. This client wasn't in the courtroom hardly at all. He was in the courtroom for a total about 90 minutes in six weeks. He testified for maybe 45 minutes, his son for maybe 30 minutes, his ex-wife for maybe 20 minutes and we focused on the lies and the other stuff.
Bob Simon (00:27):
So you're sitting at the top of the food chain for complicated cases or cases that you want across the nation, how are you able to manage that? Because you probably get calls in for trials from Alaska to Alabama.
Jakob Norman (00:40):
If you don't have a system or don't have systems, stuff falls through the cracks, but we have a quantitative and qualitative analysis. I have attorneys rate the likability of the plaintiff. Part of that is what do I care about? Well, I want them to estimate the value of the case. I want them to estimate the number of experts, how much are these people going to cost? And look at other things that we all get burned on. Prior cases, prior injuries, subsequent injuries, criminal charges, you name it. So I put all those things into intake.
Bob Simon (01:29):
Welcome to this episode of Bourbon of Proof where we interview those who are successful at law and life to inspire the younger generation and we do it over several spirits to hopefully loosen up the crowd, and today we're very honored to have Jakob Norman on today, and for those of you that do not know Jakob Norman, we'll do a little TLDR just to kind of cut to the chase as to everything you've been through. Guy's from Iowa, goes to the military. Now is pending status as a general in the Coast Guard. Coast Guard?
Mauro Fiore (02:00):
National Guard.
Bob Simon (02:01):
Oh yes, whatever. It's the same thing, right? Okay, whatever.
Jakob Norman (02:04):
Army's not the Coast Guard, we got to get this right.
Bob Simon (02:06):
What does that mean?
Jakob Norman (02:08):
The United States Army is a war fighting machine and the Coast Guard, they get drugs and stuff like that.
Bob Simon (02:12):
Okay, so Mauro knows about that. So this is why he's been transporting some narcotics. Well, we've got our co-host, Mauro Fiore as always.
Mauro Fiore (02:20):
As always, thank you. Hello, I've known Jakob a long time.
Bob Simon (02:23):
And now Jakob fights for the injuries. The director of Travelers for Justice, the COO just had a recently over $50 million verdict for an environmental case, which we will talk about. Yeah, big deal in a very tough jurisdiction and does a lot of teaching in the community. So Jakob, first of all, we're going to talk about the early years with you. So we're going to jump right into it and the first one I brought for you.
(02:49):
This is a Lock Stock & Barrel, vatted and this is their 2022 batch one. It's the first one that they did. I've never had this one, but this is a credit to all your accolades in the army, which you probably know like 20 different medals and honors, but just fascinating. So first pour for this.
Jakob Norman (03:09):
It's a great name.
Bob Simon (03:10):
Lock Stock & Barrel. We'll see how good it is to taste.
Mauro Fiore (03:14):
He had the misfortune I think of being in charge of Nick Rowley in the army.
Bob Simon (03:18):
Really?
Mauro Fiore (03:19):
Can you imagine having to wrangle in that wild stallion at 18?
Jakob Norman (03:24):
I had only 11 people that I was in charge of and Nick was one of them.
Courtney (03:29):
Hello. This is for me?
Jakob Norman (03:35):
What's happening here?
Bob Simon (03:36):
Well, she's going to take your drinks because Jake, have you ever had a drink of alcohol in your life?
Jakob Norman (03:41):
Well, I've only had one and 14 people shared a Matilda Bay at Carrie Ballou's house and so I did have a sip of a Matilda Bay and that was it.
Mauro Fiore (03:50):
What is that? Is that one of those...
Jakob Norman (03:51):
It's like a wine cooler, but her parents were gone. They were at the racket club I think, and I'd never seen such activities.
Bob Simon (03:59):
Well, we have Courtney Barber, the host of Settlement Nation.
Courtney (04:02):
Hi everyone, nice to see you all.
Bob Simon (04:03):
And now wife of Mr. Jakob Norman.
Courtney (04:07):
The talent is here, what can I say? So I'm ready to have a drink and enjoy.
Bob Simon (04:11):
Cheers. Give us your notes.
Courtney (04:14):
Cheers. Smells a bit down under.
Bob Simon (04:21):
Is your ex accent jersey, what is that?
Courtney (04:22):
It's Aussie actually.
Bob Simon (04:24):
Oh, really?
Courtney (04:25):
Nothing like a bit of Aussie in the morning. This is great. I recommend this and have a great interview guys.
Bob Simon (04:31):
Thank you. Thanks.
Jakob Norman (04:32):
South Jersey.
Bob Simon (04:33):
South Jersey, the Shore, 18 exit.
Mauro Fiore (04:37):
This is really good.
Bob Simon (04:39):
This is very good.
Mauro Fiore (04:39):
This is 100 proof.
Bob Simon (04:41):
So it's 100 proof bottle of bourbon.
Jakob Norman (04:43):
Even for a batch one.
Mauro Fiore (04:44):
And as usual, it's arrived as if Bob's picking it, it's usually arrived.
Bob Simon (04:51):
It does well, the spirit speaks to me very well. So Jakob, tell us about born in Twin Falls or Twin Cities, Iowa.
Jakob Norman (04:58):
Idaho Falls, Idaho.
Bob Simon (04:59):
Idaho Falls, Iowa.
Jakob Norman (05:01):
Idaho.
Bob Simon (05:01):
Idaho.
Jakob Norman (05:02):
The other I state.
Bob Simon (05:04):
We had another Idaho guest on one of the episodes prior to this.
Jakob Norman (05:08):
We're trying to take over.
Bob Simon (05:09):
He also went to University of Utah.
Jakob Norman (05:12):
Utah.
Bob Simon (05:12):
Law School of Villanova, my state, Pennsylvania, but you went to Army College, what was that?
Jakob Norman (05:20):
I got a master's in strategy at the Army War College.
Bob Simon (05:22):
Damn, so do you use any of your military background, strategy, or whatever being a trial lawyer?
Jakob Norman (05:31):
100%.
Bob Simon (05:33):
How so?
Jakob Norman (05:34):
And I say this, if you ask me what an attribute of a trial lawyer is or should be, its leadership and whether you're a one person firm, you might be leading a clerk one day. You're always leading a jury. You often have to lead a judge, but that leadership general overarching trait I think is used everywhere, and of course it can be used at home or anywhere else, but that's one of the core foundations of any army officer and it's usable every single day.
Bob Simon (06:01):
So is it kind of like managing egos?
Jakob Norman (06:05):
Well, there's servant leadership, which is where your giving up ego for the good of the organization. So I definitely believe in servant leadership and the other kind of leadership could be sometimes you just have to say, "I'm dropping the hammer and this is what is going to happen." But egos is always part of the game so it's best left at the door as you know.
Bob Simon (06:24):
Yeah, and speaking of managing egos, you also had to manage some egos or so we've heard, as Mauro told us, is one of the most famous trial lawyers, one of your partners, Dick Rowley, you are his supervisor, how's that work?
Jakob Norman (06:38):
No, we're all team members.
Bob Simon (06:40):
But back in the day.
Jakob Norman (06:41):
Back in the day he was 17 because he graduated early. I was 19 because I failed seventh grade. So I went to a three-year school for four years, very proud of that.
Bob Simon (06:49):
Good job.
Jakob Norman (06:50):
Dean Morgan Junior High. Couldn't get out of there fast enough. So I was appointed as a leader in basic training because I had junior ROTC. So I got randomly, 11 guys. You don't know any of them, and planes come in from all over the US and then you get in lines and there's buses and some people take a bathroom break, but you all get pushed into these lines, and somehow and this is not explainable, Nick and I ended up in the same line, same time from two very different places having not known each other at all, and I get put in charge of him.
Bob Simon (07:24):
Wow, and when was this?
Jakob Norman (07:27):
October 10th of 1994.
Bob Simon (07:29):
October 10th, 1994.
Mauro Fiore (07:30):
Oh jeez. When I think of basic training, I think of that old movie Stripes.
Jakob Norman (07:34):
That's exactly what it is.
Mauro Fiore (07:35):
It's how it is? Okay.
Jakob Norman (07:36):
Absolutely, we end up with Russians in the end.
Mauro Fiore (07:40):
Did you ever see Stripes?
Jakob Norman (07:41):
Was Gregory in that one?
Mauro Fiore (07:41):
No, it's Bill Murray and John Candy.
Jakob Norman (07:44):
Oh, Stripes.
Mauro Fiore (07:45):
John Candy.
Bob Simon (07:46):
I thought it was taps, but that was different.
Mauro Fiore (07:47):
Taps is a different, that's Tom Cruise.
Jakob Norman (07:50):
Stripes, the great outstanding people in basic training end up saving the world from nuclear war.
Bob Simon (07:56):
As usual. So this is 94.
Jakob Norman (08:01):
Coming on 30 years.
Bob Simon (08:02):
So I mean how long does that last? And are you with Nick Rowley this entire time? So walk us through your journey up until you end up being a civil trial lawyer because you did other stuff before that.
Jakob Norman (08:15):
Yes, sir.
Bob Simon (08:15):
Right?
Jakob Norman (08:17):
It's going to seem unbelievable. So Nick and I graduate basic training and then you each go your own way. I go to pararescue combat control selection course.
Bob Simon (08:29):
Pararescue. Yeah. I wonder, I'm actually going to bring my phone up because this is fucking crazy.
Jakob Norman (08:33):
I don't put that on there.
Bob Simon (08:34):
No, but one of your awards is on there is for that. It says it.
Jakob Norman (08:39):
So pararescue combat, what's more interesting is there's someone else that was in the class ahead of mine that I got to know personally, which is someone that's known as David Goggins.
Bob Simon (08:48):
Really?
Jakob Norman (08:48):
So we were in school, same time, same place. I actually walked with him to the hospital the same day he found out he had sickle cell anemia and was going to potentially be removed from the program, and I was in the payphone line behind him. This is how old this was. You had to call him on a payphone where he notified his family.
Bob Simon (09:05):
I would do the, "Hey mom, come pick me up." That's how I would do it.
Mauro Fiore (09:07):
Collect.
Bob Simon (09:08):
Yeah, collect.
Jakob Norman (09:09):
You did have to call collect.
Bob Simon (09:11):
So Jake, when was the next time you see Nick Rowley after 94 basic?
Jakob Norman (09:17):
Well, I see him while we're both in our training school. He ends up at the base I'm at and saw each other at the chow hall and hung out and then said goodbye and I didn't hear anything from him again, which is normal. No one had cell phones at the time. No one had email addresses. If you wanted to find someone, you'd maybe have to find their parents who still had a landline and that just wasn't what I was doing, but I moved to LA in 2016, I decided Manhattan Beach is the best place for my kids to go to school. I've never been to LA really except to pass through, but I started Googling or I had my daughter actually do it. She said, "Well, we need to live in Manhattan Beach because we were moving there for her." So I made her do some of the legwork.
Bob Simon (09:58):
Due diligence.
Jakob Norman (09:58):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (09:59):
That's where I live now, great public schools, great quality of life for kids.
Jakob Norman (10:03):
In our estimation, they're the best in the area, but I don't know how long it's going to be or anything so I ended up being roommates with Steve King.
Bob Simon (10:12):
Wow.
Jakob Norman (10:13):
We had a big place in Manhattan Beach and so we thought it'd be better to share the cost and he kept saying, "Hey, you got to meet my boy Nick. You got to meet my boy Nick." And I'm here from Wyoming, although I'm a single father, I'm single and he wants me to meet dudes. So I was like, "Not in a rush to meet this guy Nick." But sure enough at Cali, he's like, "Hey, you're here, Nick's here. I want you to meet him." I'm like, "Fine, okay." I'm trying to catch a plane back. It's Saturday night. You guys know what happens on Saturday night in Cali. I'm trying to get back to Manhattan Beach to be with the kids and that's where the fun begins. So he drags me over to him at a poolside cabana. They just come with Courtney and I know Courtney from the Trial Lawyers College. I knew her separately when she wasn't with him. So I see Courtney, I'm like, "Hey, it's good to see you, blah."
Bob Simon (11:10):
You didn't know that she was with him later. You had no idea.
Jakob Norman (11:14):
No, I did because when I went to the Trial Lawyers college and she was there, they weren't married and so I just wasn't ever registering these names for him so many years before.
Mauro Fiore (11:23):
Yeah, this was from 94 to 2016's a long time.
Jakob Norman (11:29):
And I don't even actually run into Nick again until about 2018. Oh, wow. So the name just wasn't sticking, but I shake his hand, I'm like, "I know this guy." And he looked at me and goes, "I know you." I said, "As a lawyer?" And he said, "Yeah." And I said, "No, I'm good with faces but I knew it wasn't from being a lawyer." And I kept thinking about it and when Nick's around, people just come up and talk to him, and so all these people were interrupting him like, "I met your boy Nick." But I kept thinking, "I know this guy." And I walked away to get to the airport and I realized where I knew him from. So I start texting Ambrose, King, all these people who I thought might have his cell phone number and no one's responding.
(12:10):
Why? Because it's Saturday night in Cali. So someone else ate a spa hick who lives out in Detroit, I thought maybe she knows and it's even later in Detroit, and she goes, "Well, I haven't talked to him in years, but here's the last number I had." And so I'm like sitting on a Southwest plane, I have this number. I'm like, "Nick, this is Jakob. We just met. I remember where we know each other from." Before we took off, he's like, "Where?" And I wrote, "Sergeant Lamb."
Bob Simon (12:36):
Wow.
Jakob Norman (12:37):
And instantly all the memories had come back to both of us and he's like, "Hey, I have an appointment with Stephen King in my office, come with him." The appointment day with Stephen King, no kidding was October 10th.
Bob Simon (12:50):
The day you guys met in 1994.
Jakob Norman (12:52):
The day we met in 1994.
Bob Simon (12:53):
And Jakob shared some photos, which on the post-production I think we'll put on, but from their yearbook from 1994, it's hilarious.
Mauro Fiore (13:00):
And Nick has showed me some pictures of him one time in Bosnia or something. They sent him to Bosnia. They'd be a medic or something.
Jakob Norman (13:07):
Well, these are even better because these look like someone typed with a typewriter on the right-hand side of the yearbook. They're black and white pictures for sure and Nick and I both look like we're 12.
Mauro Fiore (13:16):
That's awesome.
Bob Simon (13:17):
So I mean some of just the awards and accolades are just amazing. I mean I just was reading resume. We don't really carry resumes because we don't need to unless you got to be approved by the Senate to be a general. I mean we don't have to, Mauro and I.
Mauro Fiore (13:29):
Yeah, somebody asked me, I can't remember what it was. It was recently, somebody asked me for a CV. I was like, "Well, I'm not applying for a job. The fuck would I have a CV?"
Bob Simon (13:37):
That's probably to get into Justice HQ, they made you do that stuff.
Mauro Fiore (13:39):
Oh, maybe that's what it was. I was like, "I'm I applying for a job? I don't have a CV."
Jakob Norman (13:42):
If you put one together, can I see it?
Mauro Fiore (13:44):
Sure.
Jakob Norman (13:45):
I want to see what's on there.
Bob Simon (13:46):
It would be written in crayons.
Jakob Norman (13:48):
Yes.
Mauro Fiore (13:49):
I mean I could have an award for hanging out with Judd Nelson at Crazy Girls a lot back in the 90s.
Jakob Norman (13:54):
That would count.
Bob Simon (13:56):
You should put that on your resume instead of the awards badges. Combat action badge, parachutist badge, air assault badge, EMT badge, vehicle operations safety badge, former wartime shoulder sleeve insignia with three different types. Fire brigade, that sounds pretty fucking awesome. Joint materials, I can't even read, unit award. I mean this is insane. This goes on and on. Legion of Merit, NATO Medal, Afghan campaign medal. Did you ever kill a guy? Don't have to answer.
Mauro Fiore (14:28):
You don't ask those questions.
Bob Simon (14:30):
I told him you didn't have to answer. Did you kill a kid? You don't have to answer that.
Jakob Norman (14:35):
I tried to keep it to women and children only. No, that's a horrible joke.
Bob Simon (14:40):
Defense lawyers only, that would've been the layup.
Jakob Norman (14:42):
No, those are just things because the army can't give you a bonus or anything. So they give you little things to wear around, but I'm proud of some of those things. We were part of the largest attack ever on Americans still in the war on terror, 26 suicide bombers came at us, same time, same day, same hour, and some of that stuff comes out of that particular attack.
Bob Simon (15:04):
What region in the world did that happen?
Jakob Norman (15:06):
That was off of Bagram, which everyone heard Bagram, and of course it unfortunately made the news when all the troops were leaving that was at Kabul, but you hear Kabul and Bagram, the two main places and Kabul's down the road about three hours, but in Bagram, there's a camp off of that called Camp Sabalu Harrison, which is at Afghan camp, and our American camps usually have 12 foot cement walls and this particular camp had eight foot chain link fences.
Bob Simon (15:35):
That's the best US dollars could buy, chain link.
Jakob Norman (15:39):
We were trying to make it look like they had their own base.
Bob Simon (15:43):
It's kind of like that one that we erected at the border, the South border here, there's giant holes in between. You just literally walk through, whatever.
Jakob Norman (15:50):
I used to go for a run and to go for a run outside of this small base I was on was just chain link and whatever's going on outside there. So one time these kids had a BB gun. I was like, "Why am I trying to be in shape right now, this is stupid."
Bob Simon (16:07):
Yeah, and let's fast forward so I mean you're a trial lawyer throughout this from probably early 2000s then, mid 2000s on. 2002 you graduated law school from Villanova, I think three years practicing on the dark side a little bit.
Jakob Norman (16:21):
Correct.
Bob Simon (16:22):
Right. Mauro and I are true Bloods. We talk about this all the time, pure.
Mauro Fiore (16:25):
I'm gold star. Never been a defense lawyer.
Bob Simon (16:27):
Gold star, and then you did criminal work too.
Jakob Norman (16:32):
Oh yeah.
Bob Simon (16:34):
Actually, let's pour the next one. Mauro, tell us what you chose and why you chose this.
Mauro Fiore (16:43):
Well, this one's called Redwood Empire. This is from Northern California. I know these days, not all bourbon is from Kentucky anymore. There's great distilleries popping up everywhere. I think this Lock Stock & Barrel's from New Jersey or something, isn't it?
Bob Simon (16:57):
No, I think that's from Kentucky.
Mauro Fiore (16:59):
Kentucky? I don't know, but so this is from Northern Cal. They call it Redwood Empire, but it's named after the giant redwood trees.
Bob Simon (17:07):
It is New Jersey, geez.
Mauro Fiore (17:08):
Yeah, I remember reading about that one.
Bob Simon (17:11):
That's why she had that accent, I told you.
Mauro Fiore (17:13):
The giant redwood trees up in Northern Cal, they called it the Redwood Empire and I know that you recently had a huge success in Northern Cal in a big trial. So that's why we figured this one would fit right in with our theme here.
Bob Simon (17:26):
To environmental justice to this one. We're going to need Courtney Barber to come back out here to enjoy this delicious conco.
Courtney (17:34):
I'm happy to be back.
Jakob Norman (17:34):
There's a fowl right here.
Courtney (17:35):
Okay, let me drink this.
Jakob Norman (17:36):
Mauro, can you see this real quick?
Mauro Fiore (17:38):
You got a drink.
Courtney (17:39):
All right.
Mauro Fiore (17:40):
If anyone wants to get this, this is the Redwood Empire. This particular batch is called The Lost Monarch.
Courtney (17:47):
Jesus Christ.
Mauro Fiore (17:47):
This is The Lost Monarch.
Bob Simon (17:50):
At least Jakob's driving today we hope.
Jakob Norman (17:52):
Whoever's drinking for me, could they drink up?
Bob Simon (17:54):
Oh, give me some.
Mauro Fiore (17:55):
I'm sorry.
Courtney (17:56):
No, it's pathetic. It's definitely not a good show.
Bob Simon (17:59):
What kind of pour is this?
Jakob Norman (18:00):
Bob, did you hear what she said about your show?
Mauro Fiore (18:03):
You want more?
Courtney (18:04):
No, I said not a good show of me. Not a good show of this show, a great show.
Bob Simon (18:08):
I mean her show does have more downloads than ours.
Courtney (18:11):
I'm a bit of a big deal.
Mauro Fiore (18:13):
How come I've never been asked to be on there.
Courtney (18:16):
Right now You have an invite to come on my show.
Mauro Fiore (18:19):
I'm insulted
Courtney (18:20):
But today is about Jakob.
Jakob Norman (18:22):
I heard people from New Jersey could drink, is that?
Bob Simon (18:25):
This is true.
Courtney (18:26):
Well, I'm from the deep South, like real deep South.
Mauro Fiore (18:29):
Bob, here, I'll join you in the loop.
Bob Simon (18:31):
Where the toilets flush the other way, right?
Courtney (18:33):
Yeah and they actually do.
Bob Simon (18:34):
So congrats on getting hitched in Australia.
Courtney (18:38):
Thank you.
Bob Simon (18:39):
When did you guys get, It wasn't October 10th, was it?
Jakob Norman (18:42):
No, that date was taken by the pastor or preacher, whatever the person was.
Courtney (18:48):
The what?
Bob Simon (18:49):
What day did you guys get married?
Courtney (18:50):
So we got married on December 17th. Yeah, and it was lovely.
Mauro Fiore (18:54):
Of what year?
Courtney (18:55):
2022.
Bob Simon (18:55):
So recently.
Courtney (18:57):
So we're newlyweds. So it was a wedding down under, we even had a baby kangaroo at our wedding, because if a baby kangaroo doesn't come, it's not a real wedding. I don't know if you know that.
Mauro Fiore (19:10):
So Australians aren't ashamed of the kangaroo thing or anything?
Bob Simon (19:15):
What are you talking about?
Courtney (19:15):
I mean ashamed.
Mauro Fiore (19:16):
Well, I have some friends of mine that are like Arabs and they always tell me only time I ever saw camel was at the zoo. So they always get upset, because with Arab's camels and Australian's kangaroos.
Courtney (19:29):
It's a pristine creature. I mean and here's a fact before I leave my grand exit, the kangaroo and the emu are on our crest of arms because they're the only two...
Jakob Norman (19:39):
Wait, ask him why?
Courtney (19:41):
Only two animals that can't walk backwards.
Mauro Fiore (19:44):
Really?
Courtney (19:44):
So we're always advancing forward, guys.
Bob Simon (19:48):
I knew kangaroos could...
Jakob Norman (19:48):
Australia's always advancing forward trying to follow.
Mauro Fiore (19:49):
Kangaroos can't walk backwards.
Bob Simon (19:51):
So if you get in a fight with one, just keep running behind it because it can't back up.
Courtney (19:54):
That's true, just run behind it.
Bob Simon (19:56):
Well, my kids walked a lot of Wild Kratts. It was one of the facts on there.
Courtney (20:00):
Very cool. Well cheers guys, love the banter as they say in Love Island.
Jakob Norman (20:06):
A side note about that though, it turns out I was the first person to ever get a kangaroo to a wedding, Australians don't do stuff like that so it's very difficult and they thought I was a crazy American.
Bob Simon (20:16):
Well you are.
Jakob Norman (20:17):
It turns out if you make a donation to an animal rescue, they'll show up with a kangaroo.
Bob Simon (20:21):
I love kangaroos.
Mauro Fiore (20:22):
I've seen those videos where they look like they want to box.
Jakob Norman (20:24):
They will.
Mauro Fiore (20:25):
Get up and start boxing.
Jakob Norman (20:25):
Those are called the red, what is it? She told me to go walk over to one one day. They stand up. There're taller than you and they're built like [inaudible 00:20:36].
Bob Simon (20:36):
They're buff. They look like they're jacked. I don't mess with those things.
Jakob Norman (20:40):
So if an Aussie ever tells you to walk up to one, stay away.
Mauro Fiore (20:44):
Wow, this is good.
Bob Simon (20:47):
This might be better than the last one. I've never had this one. So tell us about your recently, a few weeks ago was when you got this landmark verdict and it's also a social change verdict, the one that you recently had. Before we get there, walk us back to the first trial that Jakob Norman ever did, what was it?
Jakob Norman (21:09):
So when you're the defense firm, you have to do certain things. You should serve on non-profit boards. You should do stuff in the community. You should take conflict cases with the public defender's office. At least that was kind of the take that mine did and the reason is one help is needed, it's good, and evidently it makes judges think your firm is okay as well. So I worked my way under the CGA panel, that's the federal conflict panel.
Bob Simon (21:35):
Where are you at in the world in this?
Jakob Norman (21:36):
I'm in Wyoming.
Bob Simon (21:37):
Wyoming.
Jakob Norman (21:38):
And what's going on right at that point in Wyoming is major meth is passing through. It comes across the border up through Arizona. They cut through Wyoming because it's a least populated state, hardly ever get pulled over. So they were doing like 50, 60, 40 person conspiracies for methamphetamine. And the federal public defender's office can only represent one of those. So on the 50, you need 49 other offices in Wyoming or Colorado to cover it. So I started taking those, and so when I was newer on the panel, they gave me the less culpable defendants is what the plan was and it turns out my first trial ever was the only defendant that didn't after a plea deal out of 50.
Bob Simon (22:22):
I mean so you're screwed.
Jakob Norman (22:22):
Or 54. I had what looked like number 54. 53 pled out and I got one.
Bob Simon (22:28):
And I mean they couldn't have gone well.
Jakob Norman (22:31):
What makes you think that?
Bob Simon (22:32):
Because the other people all pled out.
Jakob Norman (22:34):
Yeah, that turned out to be a problem. That and 36,000 recorded phone calls. So my client did not testify except via DVD through the speaker system that sounded really good. So I had all kinds of challenges in that trial. First one is three and a half weeks. My kid's principal is on the jury. That's like a Wyoming juror. The clerks dared me to say something in trial. So I had all kinds of weight on my shoulders, including this guy was facing life. So he was charged with about three and a half pounds of meth and he was convicted. It turns out that I'm really proud of this particular case because he was caught with three grams on him and they convicted him of three grams, so I feel like I've won. The three pounds they charged him with, I successfully convinced them that was just a bunch of people lying to save themselves and he got busted. However, because of the way the rules were at the time, that's life because he had other prior felonies. So he will die in an American prison, which is wrong.
Bob Simon (23:38):
It is wrong. Are you a passionate person outside the courtroom for just general change?
Jakob Norman (23:45):
Yes.
Bob Simon (23:46):
Tell us about that.
Jakob Norman (23:48):
Well, I'm a changed guy. You can't help who we are sometimes, but in the army, and it's so cliche and I hate it right now, but my call sign's Maverick.
Mauro Fiore (23:58):
Really?
Jakob Norman (23:59):
Yeah, and it's not...
Mauro Fiore (23:59):
Mine's Goose.
Jakob Norman (24:00):
Is it?
Mauro Fiore (24:01):
Yeah.
Jakob Norman (24:01):
Oh man, that's awesome. We should fly together.
Bob Simon (24:04):
Thought it was Billy Goat?
Mauro Fiore (24:07):
It is the goat actually.
Bob Simon (24:09):
Oh god.
Mauro Fiore (24:09):
Because I'm sure-footed like a mountain goat. If you ever hike with me, you'll see, I'm an amazing hiker.
Jakob Norman (24:15):
We should do it.
Mauro Fiore (24:16):
We should.
Bob Simon (24:17):
Tell us about your hike to Machu Picchu.
Mauro Fiore (24:20):
I took the train up to the top and then I had some pictures taken of me walking into the valley like I had hiked up and I had an industrial-sized bag of cocoa leaves to keep me going.
Jakob Norman (24:31):
I feel like a goat wouldn't do that.
Mauro Fiore (24:33):
Well, I'm an American goat.
Jakob Norman (24:35):
Oh, okay.
Mauro Fiore (24:37):
American goat, not a Peruvian goat.
Jakob Norman (24:38):
But you got the pictures.
Mauro Fiore (24:39):
Yeah.
Jakob Norman (24:40):
Perfect. I like it. So where were we? I'm thinking of him as a goat right now on hikes we could do.
Mauro Fiore (24:48):
Oh, you said your call sign was Maverick.
Jakob Norman (24:50):
Oh, I still kind of fighting the system. People ask me why I'm even messing around with the army. I lose money to go every month, right? Plane ticket, the rental car, this, that, whatever it is costs more than I make, but I still feel like I'm capable of making change and have, and there's a lot going on that I got to be part of the first prosecution ever of a detainee in American custody all the way to where I was a commander at the inauguration a couple years ago. The stuff you saw on TV, that underground parking structure, I was in charge of that night. So I'm still proud of that and what you heard actually wasn't true, believe it or not.
Bob Simon (25:28):
What did I hear?
Jakob Norman (25:29):
Well, you heard that we're sleeping in the parking structure and we didn't have places to stay and all kinds of stuff like that. That's not true. We're on two hours on, two hour off shifts. So what does an army person do when they have a break? They lay down. I was staying at the stadium at the time, so we had sleeping bags and warm place to stay and stuff like that, and actually the parking structures as you go deeper and deeper are warmer. So the news made it sound like the National Guard is being mistreated and all this, but that was our shift. We had the night shift and as a leader, I want the people who aren't working to rest and they chose to rest in different ways, but it made the news.
Bob Simon (26:08):
Wow.
Mauro Fiore (26:09):
Ridiculous.
Bob Simon (26:12):
Well, things get twisted and distorted all the time. That's why you represent people to help tell their story. I mean because you do a lot of David versus Glide stuff, right? So let's fast-forward, you had several trials in between there. You guys do national practice, which we'll get to, but now you're in NorCal, Santa Maria and you're trying this. Well tell us about the case.
Jakob Norman (26:31):
Yeah, it's pretty simple. So it's a case that, let's start with nobody wanted it. So I get a call from Taylor Ernst.
Mauro Fiore (26:38):
Sounds like most of the cases in my office.
Jakob Norman (26:40):
Yeah, it's perfect. It's like, "Oh, Jakob might be interested, which is true." Because I'm a little bit of a bleeding heart. Taylor Ernst and I are both pilots. He got this case. He doesn't want to try the case. He's a TBI guy. He wants to stick in that lane and ask me.
Bob Simon (26:56):
Great TBI guy.
Jakob Norman (26:58):
Absolutely.
Bob Simon (27:00):
You're a pilot.
Jakob Norman (27:01):
Yes.
Bob Simon (27:02):
You had a parachuting award. Just walk us through this. I just want to know what that's like. Do you actually parachute down with weapons and blow shit up?
Jakob Norman (27:11):
Everything. So all airborne soldiers, Marines, Airmen, or whatever, part of getting that badge is you do jumps with just yourself, but in order to be qualified, you have to jump with your weapon, your rucksack and everything. So you can barely walk. It's called the Airborne Shuffle, but you have all this stuff on, it's so heavy you kind of shuffle because you can't take one step in front of the other. You get on the airplane. It could be a jet, it could be a C-130, whatever is available through the Air Force because the army only has helicopters. Well we just don't have the big planes to jump out of, but anyway, so you jump and you're so heavy. What you do is you have a line and you let your rucksack down so it's hanging below you.
Bob Simon (27:53):
Your what sack?
Jakob Norman (27:54):
Rucksack.
Bob Simon (27:55):
Rucksack. Oh, Mauro thought you said something else.
Jakob Norman (27:57):
Your nutsack is below you too.
Bob Simon (27:59):
He peaked, I see it.
Mauro Fiore (28:00):
And mine really is low sometimes.
Bob Simon (28:03):
He's almost 50.
Mauro Fiore (28:03):
Yeah.
Jakob Norman (28:04):
I feel like it would be inside you during this particular part of the operation. So it hits before you so you're lighter. So if you ever see on TV, there's something hanging below, it literally hits and then you hit right after so it doesn't hurt you.
Mauro Fiore (28:19):
I've done the parachutes at Knoxbury Farm if you've ever been there.
Jakob Norman (28:23):
That's where all the army people start.
Mauro Fiore (28:25):
Is that where they train? Because they take you up and then they drop you down in the parachute, have you ever been on that one?
Bob Simon (28:30):
No, but I know people always shot me these parachuting cases, but every like civilian, just going out recreational, none of these places ever have insurance.
Mauro Fiore (28:37):
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. I've had two of them. It was called two of them against the same place. Skydive Lodi or whatever up there and they don't have insurance. The guy laughs. He goes, "You want to sue me? Go ahead and sue me." I called the guy, he goes, "I got a video of your guy." They take videos of him. "You're going to die, right? Yeah, I'm going to die. Okay, you know you can die. Most likely you're going to die." Yeah, and then they go, "Okay, go ahead and sue me. I'll send you the video."
Jakob Norman (29:01):
Well, some don't have cars, why would they have insurance? They only do this because they love it. Army people, it's a little different experience. So we jump as low as about 800 feet, so five seconds in, you're on the ground, you're splattered.
Mauro Fiore (29:17):
Five seconds?
Jakob Norman (29:18):
Well, at 800 feet, depending on a few other factors, you don't have much time to fail.
Bob Simon (29:24):
Wow, well speaking of how much time do you have to fail? How long was your recent trial?
Jakob Norman (29:29):
Well, six weeks.
Bob Simon (29:32):
Wow, that's a long one.
Jakob Norman (29:33):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (29:34):
So walk us through again, happens up in Santa Maria, said it's a simple case. Tyler Ernst calls you, he's a TBI guy and says, "Hey, I need a specialist. I need that sniper rifle badge guy."
Jakob Norman (29:46):
Yeah, just honestly he needed help. He was in one of his normal cases where he had 111 depositions and he just needed someone to run with this.
Bob Simon (29:55):
Wow, 111 depositions?
Jakob Norman (29:57):
Yes.
Bob Simon (29:58):
Sounds like Taylor Ernst.
Jakob Norman (29:59):
That's Taylor. I've never had one of these 111 deposition cases. So I'm like, "I like this case, I want to do it." But I'm not licensed in California.
Bob Simon (30:09):
Where are you licensed? Because you take trials everywhere.
Jakob Norman (30:11):
Correct, so just Wyoming and Colorado and the rest I do pro hac.
Bob Simon (30:15):
Wow.
Jakob Norman (30:15):
I know some people go get licensed other places. I haven't worked on that too hard.
Bob Simon (30:22):
Did the judge give you a hard time because you're not a California guy.
Jakob Norman (30:27):
I will tell you this, if you are a rules follower and a team player and stuff like that, any judge in any place will accept you and I have gotten nothing other than that, but if you go in there and you act like you run the place and you act like the rules don't matter or you fail to read the local rules, which every time you pro hac, there's a little thing in there that says, "I read and understand. I'll follow your rules." If you want to play that game, it's going to be a nightmare.
Bob Simon (30:52):
Wow.
Jakob Norman (30:53):
I don't like to play the game.
Bob Simon (30:55):
But what's your intake process like for you because our firm kind of built assembly where you get shopped a lot of trials and 110 depositions, it's going to take you a month to see if this case is good.
Jakob Norman (31:09):
Taylor hadn't previously asked for help. I believed in the facts and so I said yes on the phone.
Bob Simon (31:16):
Wow, on the phone.
Jakob Norman (31:18):
But it's interesting because three other people after as I was trying to get help with someone to sponsor me, even though Taylor could sponsor me, he let me know he's too busy to deal with it. So three other people said no to the case even midway through that people that are going to be local counsel for me wrote a disengagement letter to the client without telling me they thought it was a bad case. He gets a disengagement letter in the mail calls, Taylor and I, he's like, "What's going on?" I'm like, "No, nothing's bad. I'm sorry about that. I'm still your guy." But
Mauro Fiore (31:48):
To pro hac, you need to need a California lawyer that signed for you, but you have partners that are California lawyers, right?
Jakob Norman (31:55):
I did.
Bob Simon (31:56):
So what type of case is this? I mean 110 depositions.
Jakob Norman (31:58):
No, Taylor was doing 110. That's why he gave me this case because it's not a TBI and it's not up his alley. So he's like, "I can't do anything for you. I just need you to run with the case."
Bob Simon (32:08):
So tell us, how did you jump into this case? 110 depositions, Taylor's talking about he's too busy, what kind of case is this?
Jakob Norman (32:15):
So this is a complicated case. So anytime someone comes at me complicated or up against a statute of limitations, we start with a 50% fee agreement. That's like step one. You come at me 30 days to a statute or something like that, you're going to change my life or a hard case. So that's where I started. Yes, I will do it, but there's a trade off. So you just have to start looking into it. This gentleman had multiple myeloma and we'll just go backwards a little bit. Let's talk about how he found out and then I'll tell you about the case, is that okay? So I have a client that gets diagnosed with multiple myeloma in 2015. Nobody knows why and doctors will tell you they don't know why and stuff like that. Well coincidentally in 2015, his son had gone to his high school reunion.
(33:04):
He had a female with him and wanted to show her where they grew up, right? Maybe you've done that in Pennsylvania, I don't know.
Bob Simon (33:11):
Just the house I grew up in, it's the cracked in next door, looks nice.
Jakob Norman (33:16):
This is the high school I went to. I mean you're giving them an opportunity to bail.
Bob Simon (33:18):
Exactly. This is what you're getting into.
Jakob Norman (33:21):
Yes, thanksgiving will be right there. Anyway, so the house was gone. So he goes and tells his dad, "Hey, our house is gone." His dad's going through chemo and he actually had divorced the mom two and a half years into owning the house and he is like, "Okay." He took it as just regular information. Well then the daughter came about two years later and told dad, so now dad's progressed through chemo and stuff like that. Dad, there's a two-story house where our house used to be.
(33:52):
So my client's healthy enough at the time so he Googles it, and you know how Zillow and all these things pop up now when you do an address. He wanted to see what the house looked like. That's not what popped up first. What popped up first is Chevron had bought the house, excavated all this soil because other people had been contaminated and then resold it. So for the first time ever, he's on notice. Now of course what lawyers care about that there could be a connection between that and the cancer he has.
Mauro Fiore (34:19):
So the pictures were of the land being dug up.
Jakob Norman (34:23):
Correct. Not this new two-story house, which you could get to a couple stories down to Zillow and those things, but this was stories about people leaving the house, about Chevron buying the house and he's like, "What the heck?" And so that's when he got ahold of the Ernst and we had to start putting this together because if you look at the epidemiological studies, which it's interesting, right? The defense wants our clients to be compared to an epidemiological study, which is kind of BS because my client got put into an epidemiological study unknowingly by a lazy corporation.
(35:01):
So we go and we find there's hundreds of articles that say no connection. Benzene does not cause multiple myeloma, but benzene exposure causes acute myeloid leukemia, which comes from your bone marrow, right? Guess what multiple myeloma is? It's damaged to your bone marrow that then of course causes the cancer, so this just didn't make sense to us. So our oncologist said, "Yes, this is it." And we're like, "Great. Where are the studies?" And you look and there's IARC, The International Association Research on Cancer. There's all these things and it says there's some correlation, but not really, but that all the overwhelming studies say no. So you drill down in the studies and you start looking at the study author names, which we normally don't do, but when you look at the study author name and look them up, it was the chief toxicologist for Shell oil.
Bob Simon (35:54):
Shell oil, for the oil companies.
Jakob Norman (35:56):
So what we learned is they put $31 million into creating studies that actually do support. It's hard to make a connection between that because multiple myeloma might take 20, 30, 40 years to discover. So how do you study that? You don't get a study that, so we just started attacking that and the overwhelming causation was it does not do this, but we said, "No, he's your first human study. He was unnecessarily put into this study without his knowledge and this is what it does." So I told people going into this trial, "I'm getting zero or 50 million."
Bob Simon (36:31):
You got the 50
Mauro Fiore (36:32):
And the benzene is one of those forever cannibals they call them, right?
Jakob Norman (36:35):
Yeah, it's a known carcinogen, but what they say, they argue this in the trial is no, it's that when you walk out on the street, that's background benzene and when you fill the gas pump, and we're all breathing in so he's okay, and we couldn't prove how much benzene he was exposed to in '86, '87, and '88, well guess why?
Bob Simon (36:53):
They pulled the evidence.
Jakob Norman (36:54):
They pulled the evidence, so we did get some soil samples before, but not in the house, not vapor intrusion so we couldn't prove any of the stuff we needed to prove, but I'm like ladies and gentlemen, they bought the house and tore down the house. So when they brought their expert on, I said, "Hey, if Chevron ever said please do vapor intrusion so we can figure out what was in that home, could you do that?" He had to say yes. Could you please test this, that and the other a different way than had been done so far? Would you have been able to do that? And it's an engineering firm, he has to say yes and so we proved they're the ones that didn't allow us to have the answer. So I am telling you the causation was always a factor. We had to convince this jury.
(37:32):
And what I say is try the lie. If you can try the lie, you're going to win every single time. Try the lie. We trial by human, we talk about and we train and we love to tell human stories. This client wasn't in the courtroom hardly at all. He was in the courtroom for a total about 90 minutes in six weeks. He testified for maybe 45 minutes, his son for maybe 30 minutes, his ex-wife for maybe 20 minutes and we focused on the lies and the other stuff, and I don't believe in having the client sit at the table with us.
Bob Simon (38:03):
I don't either.
Jakob Norman (38:04):
I hate it. They're being judged the whole time.
Mauro Fiore (38:06):
Yeah, they're staring at them the whole time. Did you have to beat an MSJ on that case? Sounds like you had serious causation problems.
Jakob Norman (38:12):
We did.
Bob Simon (38:13):
But it's the common sense thing too, that's why Haven Corporation is deliberately, we do this in all product cases. They take the product back, they destroy it. It's like, "Oh, sorry, you don't have anything." It's like we have other science of common sense. We're going to do our last pour here because we're going to get into the epilogue of the Jakob Norman story.
(38:33):
And this is Yellowstone Select. So this is actually one of the best whiskeys they do make in Kentucky, but it's Yellowstone. So it's up in Big Sky, right? This is Montana, but Wyoming where you're from. So you have a national practice and in Jakob Norman's life, he's on a plane. Obviously, he's the pilot apparently. Do you ever fly Mauro's private jet, the SW Air?
Mauro Fiore (38:54):
The SWA? Southwest Airlines, you never flew for them?
Bob Simon (38:58):
Hold on, Courtney needs to have a...
Courtney (38:59):
I need a new cup because a bunch of bugs flew into mine.
Bob Simon (39:03):
Tall tales.
Jakob Norman (39:04):
Can we go on the record that still has pour in?
Courtney (39:08):
No, I'm not even kidding, there's bugs in there.
Bob Simon (39:11):
Los Angeles, Charles Lu, thank you for allowing us to use the firm. Your private whisky members of the bar.
Courtney (39:17):
This is the Montana one?
Bob Simon (39:20):
Well, this is Yellowstone. It's made in Kentucky.
Mauro Fiore (39:25):
I have a one that I bought in Yellowstone National Park, they have a grand prismatic special edition, which is one of those lakes there in Yellowstone that you can go check out the vaporing bubbling sulfur pools.
Jakob Norman (39:38):
Can I stick up for Wyoming real quick?
Bob Simon (39:40):
For sure.
Jakob Norman (39:41):
About 90% of Yellowstone is Wyoming and this TV series has really taken that away from us and placed it in Montana.
Mauro Fiore (39:47):
That's true.
Jakob Norman (39:48):
I want to stick up for the majority of the park that it's a Wyoming situation.
Mauro Fiore (39:51):
I've been there several times and the only part of it is in West Yellowstone in Montana like five minutes of it's in Montana and the rest of it's in Wyoming and Idaho.
Jakob Norman (40:01):
Correct. You got it.
Mauro Fiore (40:02):
Yeah, I'm like a Griswold kind of RV-er so I know that stuff.
Jakob Norman (40:08):
Well Holiday Roads is one of my favorite songs.
Bob Simon (40:12):
Man, I'm going to be singing that in my head today.
Courtney (40:15):
It's lovely.
Bob Simon (40:17):
He's got a Porker Russ. Anytime you get Courtney Barber to spit a drink out through her nose.
Courtney (40:23):
Listen, and the fun fact that you don't don't know about Jakob is our wedding photographer started calling Jakob, Nick Lachey.
Bob Simon (40:30):
Oh my god, I do see Nick Lachey.
Jakob Norman (40:32):
Who's the editor?
Courtney (40:32):
Yeah, so you can also refer to him as Nick Lachey.
Mauro Fiore (40:36):
You need a fake tan, a really dark tan.
Bob Simon (40:39):
His wife's friends with my wife and they talk all the time about stuff and very nice people actually. Lachey's very nice. They live in Hawaii now.
Jakob Norman (40:46):
We tried to watch their reality series.
Bob Simon (40:49):
What, back with Jessica Simpson or he has a new one?
Jakob Norman (40:52):
Is it Alba? What's his new wife's name? Simpson was his first one. Vanessa, what's her last name?
Bob Simon (40:58):
Lachey now, but it was like vanilla or something.
Mauro Fiore (41:00):
Hudgens.
Bob Simon (41:01):
No, it was on the MTV show. Thought it was Vanessa, whatever, it's Lachey now.
Jakob Norman (41:06):
Everybody in the room knows this except us.
Bob Simon (41:08):
Oh, probably but it's fine. I'll know it six drinks from now.
Jakob Norman (41:12):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (41:14):
Well whatever, you do look like Nick Lachey. It is 98 degrees in here too. Look at these dimples.
Jakob Norman (41:19):
I'm going to pretend like you never said this.
Bob Simon (41:21):
Look at this.
Mauro Fiore (41:22):
Jakob, you have a son who's like 25?
Jakob Norman (41:24):
He turns 25 in a couple months.
Mauro Fiore (41:26):
You had him when you're 12 or what?
Bob Simon (41:28):
No, look at this.
Mauro Fiore (41:29):
There's no way you can have a 25 year old.
Jakob Norman (41:31):
In Wyoming, that's what you do. I know you coast people, you wait a little bit longer, but in the middle of the country you make babies with the people you go to high school with.
Bob Simon (41:40):
Yeah, there you go. So how old is your daughter? She's early 20s?
Jakob Norman (41:43):
She's 20. She'll be 21 in September.
Bob Simon (41:45):
Still in Manhattan Beach?
Jakob Norman (41:47):
She's in Manhattan.
Bob Simon (41:48):
Manhattan, oh.
Mauro Fiore (41:49):
The big apple. She is. I was just there in New York and as usual I couldn't wait to get out of there. I grew up in Southern California and New York, it just kicks you right in the face if you're from LA. I don't adapt. I can spend 12 hours there before I want to leave.
Jakob Norman (42:08):
Yeah, I agree. It's a couple day place.
Mauro Fiore (42:10):
Yeah, it's bad.
Bob Simon (42:11):
They have a good show.
Jakob Norman (42:12):
But for a young adult I think great, go do it now and I'm sure she'll end up not there in the long run.
Bob Simon (42:20):
Yeah, so you got two kids in their 20s, do any of them talk about the stories of dad and any want to follow in your footsteps? How's that going?
Jakob Norman (42:29):
No, they hate me. I was a single dad so I had to make them do their homework. No, Caden's worked for the company a little bit. He's done a little bit of everything. He makes a lot of openings and closings for lawyers across the country actually because they struggle with those kinds of tasks. It's not directly related to being a lawyer.
Mauro Fiore (42:49):
He does PowerPoint stuff?
Jakob Norman (42:51):
Yeah.
Mauro Fiore (42:52):
I have an associate attorney in my office, she's maybe 27 or something. Her ability to use PowerPoint is like to me like otherworldly. I can barely make a fucking slide and I can tell her I want a video, I want this embedded, whatever and it's done. So the young kids, they really know how to use that stuff.
Bob Simon (43:10):
I would love to see your resume in crayon actually.
Jakob Norman (43:12):
I'm so excited.
Bob Simon (43:14):
Because you just put these stupid stories about Judd Nelson and other crazy stuff.
Mauro Fiore (43:19):
Yeah, I mean I just voted many things, not most likely to succeed, that's for sure.
Bob Simon (43:24):
Were you voted anything in high school?
Mauro Fiore (43:27):
No, I don't think so.
Bob Simon (43:27):
I was class flirt if you can believe that.
Mauro Fiore (43:29):
Really?
Jakob Norman (43:30):
Class flirt. I was voted, did you guys have electronic voting at the time?
Mauro Fiore (43:36):
No, well I didn't.
Jakob Norman (43:37):
Mine was, it's called a GPA and it was a 2.2.
Mauro Fiore (43:40):
Yeah.
Jakob Norman (43:41):
That's what I got voted in high school. That's why I went into the military.
Mauro Fiore (43:45):
I'm right there with you on that. I had a very low GPA and as a matter of fact, I mean I'm ashamed of very few things in my life, but this I'm ashamed of a week before graduation of high school, I still hadn't passed some English test that you had to pass.
Bob Simon (44:00):
I have nightmares about this every fucking night still.
Mauro Fiore (44:01):
You had to pass some English test for the state of California to graduate. So they took 10 or 15 of the real ding-dongs like me and my buddy Dallas Miller, who he was a Marine MP for 20 years more than that down at Camp Pendleton.
Jakob Norman (44:21):
Well that's a good handle if you're a Marine and a cop.
Mauro Fiore (44:23):
So they took us into a room, the ding-dongs that weren't going to get their diploma and they said, "Okay, we're going to review for this test." And basically, they spent four hours reviewing the actual test and giving us the answers and then they gave us the test right after. So it was like, "Damn, I can pass this. They just went over it." So I actually got my diploma because of that, but I barely graduated as you guys know.
Jakob Norman (44:49):
I know you're probably trying to wrap it up, but I don't have many nightmares, but one is associated with this. I'm about to graduate law school and they come and tell me I didn't quite get there.
Bob Simon (44:57):
Have this all the time. Me too all the time.
Mauro Fiore (44:59):
Or they tell you that your bar exam results were incorrect.
Bob Simon (45:02):
But I've been practicing law for like 10 years, what do you mean I didn't graduate law school?
Jakob Norman (45:06):
It's legit, I don't have ghost ones and I don't have this and that. I always have, I just about made it, but someone's telling me I'd not made it.
Bob Simon (45:13):
You know what, I have the same recurrent, wonder what that tells us about us.
Jakob Norman (45:16):
We should figure this out.
Bob Simon (45:17):
Yeah, we should go to a personal health...
Mauro Fiore (45:19):
Yeah, I've had that nightmare.
Bob Simon (45:20):
Do you know any shamans? I feel like Mauro would know a shaman to be able to tell us.
Mauro Fiore (45:23):
No, I mean I've been to Costa Rica and done the ayahuasca and stuff like that.
Bob Simon (45:29):
Well there we go.
Mauro Fiore (45:29):
That was fun and the guy put me in this sweat lodge thing. It was cool.
Bob Simon (45:36):
Jakob, I mean literally being a colonel, being in leadership, you teach a lot of leadership but also a lot of just straight-up operations for law firms. So you're sitting at the top of the food chain for complicated cases or cases that you want across the nation, how are you able to manage that? Because you probably get calls in for trials from Alaska to Alabama. How do you set up your policies and procedures and where do you think that the practice of law is going to go?
Jakob Norman (46:03):
Yeah, so a couple of things, one is most lawyers are horrible at the business side. We're the most embezzled from profession that exists and it's because we suck at all this particular stuff.
Bob Simon (46:14):
So the way my dad does our books?
Jakob Norman (46:16):
Yeah, that's a great idea. Keep it in the family.
Mauro Fiore (46:18):
And God bless her, so my mom was my accountant for years too until she passed away and I never bothered with it, but after she passed away like six years ago, then now I have to actually pay attention and I never did before.
Jakob Norman (46:31):
No, it's hard and to your point to finish the question, we're not advertisers. A lot of attorneys will call you not because they see your value a different way. Unfortunately, they call when they have a problem when they're all the way through and they maybe didn't designate an expert to save money or something like that and you guys know these stories, but it's sometimes too late, but people ought to call people for help and not me or you or they ought to call someone for help when it's their best case ever, but typically they kind of hold those and I hear all these stories, "Oh, I had my best case ever." And they tell me, and they said, "They sell it for three million." I'm like, "That was a $20 million case and you chose not to bring someone in." So when we're managing it, first starts with software and I'm not here to plug any software, but if you don't have a system or don't have systems, stuff falls through the cracks, but we have a quantitative and qualitative analysis. I have attorneys rate the likability of the plaintiff, rate aggravating factors.
Bob Simon (47:29):
Have you ever seen his operating systems? When we go off fair, it's the most beautiful work of art I've ever seen. Everything's automated, but what Jakob spent, I think he told me this, all of Thanksgiving for two, three weeks, he did it all himself. Build out every single piece of it.
Jakob Norman (47:43):
Right and part of that is what do I care about? Well, I want them to estimate the value of the case. I want them to estimate the number of experts, how much are these people going to cost? And look at other things that we all get burned on. Prior cases, prior injuries, subsequent injuries, criminal charges, you name it. So I put all those things into intake and then I can run reports and tell you, and not only that later when the case settles or gets a verdict, I can start telling you if attorney A in California or attorney B in Boston is actually good or bad at rating cases and bringing cases in, so we hear this a lot though, "Oh, I only have two people or three people." It doesn't matter. You need a system to go from beginning to the end to make sure you have a system and it's working and everybody could use a little bit of that.
Bob Simon (48:30):
Yeah, because when somebody calls you about a case in Oklahoma, I mean you're not licensed there, do you have a lawyer that's part of your organization, Charles for justice already there. If not, you got to find someone local to pro hac you in. You have to have the same systems in place or else it fails.
Jakob Norman (48:47):
Correct and it's scary, right? Oklahoma we're good on, but what about the state that you're not? How do you know you're getting the right person and you need someone that knows, understands the rules and hopefully has credibility.
Bob Simon (48:58):
And I wish these lawyers, this happens all the time where they come in with their best case too late or they fucked it up or did something catastrophic and they had to settle to their detriment of their client on the cheap and they're not able to have that money last forever. I know settlement broking, these type of things, you're able to broker the settlement and you do a lot of those things for your clients too to make sure the money lasts forever, but going a step back, these attorneys just got the case at least on a consultation basis.
Jakob Norman (49:26):
Correct.
Bob Simon (49:26):
So I don't know if you guys do this, but it's like, "Hey, put us on either a low stagger percentage or let us just give you input early on so you don't screw it up catastrophically."
Jakob Norman (49:37):
Correct.
Bob Simon (49:38):
But you have to have a system in place to do this.
Mauro Fiore (49:40):
Yeah. I mean I get calls like you're saying from lawyers that literally, I mean I told this guy the other day, I said, "Listen, man, I'm good, man, but I'm not a fucking magician." I mean this case is a disaster. You couldn't have blown more, blew everything, didn't do anything and it's a great case, and they literally want miracles. They think, "Oh Mauro, he can pull a rabbit out of the head." I mean shit, I have a lot of times and that's the thing, we have, right? You've gotten away with it.
(50:10):
I've gotten away with it a million times. Yeah, but I mean that's not how I lie. It's not my choice. I mean have I gone to this trial with no discovery, no experts, winging everything and had some defense lawyer that was his worst enemy and fucked himself and you kicked the guy's ass because they're so bad. Yeah, but I mean is that the way you want to set up your practice? Absolutely not, right? But you do that a few times and people think you can do it all the time. It's like, "Man, I'd like to have my stuff done right."
Bob Simon (50:39):
So Jakob, just give the end of the show here. Some practical advice for the lawyers, young lawyers, or any practice area they're in right now, what should they be doing?
Jakob Norman (50:46):
Yeah, practical advice to young lawyers. People say the same stuff, join Toastmasters, do this, do that, go to whatever. I think I'd say run with scissors. We're told not to take chances. My mom always said, "Don't run with scissors." So I'll never stab myself, but I think what we ought to be doing is running with scissors. Go do some workers' comp work, learn how to start talking to doctors early. Go do a couple DUI trials. You want trial practice, [inaudible 00:51:19], and a DUI is the same nearly as the last case I just did.
(51:22):
But go take these chances, don't stay in one of those things, but it's through mentorship. Young lawyers when they think they're bothering me, it's the best thing they're ever doing. They're like, "I'm about to graduate law school. What should I do?" I'll say, go run with scissors and don't go join your dad's firm. If my kid ends up being at this firm, he is not working with or for me, but if you want to be a trial lawyer, you got to take those chances and that means you can get hurt. It means you can lose money. It means that the gray-haired guy at the top might not think you're the best ever, but what's the option? There's no option so take those chances.
Bob Simon (52:01):
Yeah and I think if you take those calculated chances, you're right. If you have a mentorship group or people to bounce, they strike strategic risk, right? You can run with scissors, but know some options while you're running. I like that. That should be the name of your book, your autobiography, running with Scissors.
Jakob Norman (52:16):
Well, look, when my mom wasn't around, I always did and I'm here today.
Bob Simon (52:20):
Is that how you got the dimples? That's right. Wow, Nick Lachey, thank you ladies and gentlemen. Well, we have to ask Courtney. Courtney, can you come back on because we do at the end of the show where you get to choose your bourbon of proof.
Mauro Fiore (52:31):
Well, I don't know, she hasn't drank.
Courtney (52:32):
I'm a pathetic human being.
Mauro Fiore (52:33):
She didn't drink that one either.\.
Bob Simon (52:34):
Oh, wow.
Courtney (52:35):
Okay, you have to drink it so that I can choose. So I have to choose the best one?
Mauro Fiore (52:37):
Well, I'll tell you what it tastes like.
Bob Simon (52:38):
Which one you liked and why, this is your shining moment for it.
Courtney (52:42):
I actually really liked the first one.
Bob Simon (52:44):
Interesting.
Courtney (52:45):
Yeah, because I feel like I don't usually drink this. I just drink rum like a real Aussie.
Jakob Norman (52:52):
You have Rum in Australia?
Courtney (52:55):
Or we just binge drink.
Bob Simon (52:56):
It's made backwards.
Courtney (52:57):
We do nothing.
Mauro Fiore (52:58):
Or kangaroo juice.
Courtney (53:00):
Sometimes, just the blood straight from the neck.
Mauro Fiore (53:03):
Wow, I want to pick some of that.
Courtney (53:03):
I think the first one was really smooth and surprised me because I came here gearing myself up for some real fire in the throat and I was like, "Wow."
Bob Simon (53:12):
And that's I think the highest proof one. That's 100 proof.
Courtney (53:15):
Well, that makes sense because we're all insane so I like that one the most.
Bob Simon (53:20):
Well, Jakob, your bourbon of proof is a Lock Stock & Barrel. Congratulations. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for watching the episode of Bourbon of Proof. If you want to find Jakob Norman, you just google the guy's name, but it's Jakob with a K.
Jakob Norman (53:31):
That's correct.
Bob Simon (53:31):
It's like our favorite animal from Australia.
Mauro Fiore (53:33):
The kangaroo.
Bob Simon (53:34):
The koala.
Mauro Fiore (53:35):
Oh.
Bob Simon (53:36):
Actually I like the platypus, it's my favorite. The duck bill platypus, obviously.
Mauro Fiore (53:39):
My favorite animal from Australia is Crocodile Dundee.
Bob Simon (53:44):
Oh God.
Mauro Fiore (53:45):
I love Crocodile Dundee. Is he still famous over there?
Courtney (53:48):
I mean he's an icon.
Bob Simon (53:50):
Him or Steve Irwin, who's more famous?
Courtney (53:52):
Steve Irwin is like a country bad boy.
Jakob Norman (53:56):
I thought I was a country bad boy.
Courtney (53:57):
Well, you were too, but I mean you got to love a guy who just jumps on a crocodile for fun.
Jakob Norman (54:02):
Wow.
Bob Simon (54:03):
This is a knife, that's the best line.
Courtney (54:04):
This is a knife.
Jakob Norman (54:04):
That's not a knife. One of their last prime ministers or a few ago, he was a championship beer drinker so they have a great system down there and they found him at a soccer match. You can look this up, but the crowd gets going and they call it sculling.
Courtney (54:22):
He's like full massive beer or we call it necked it. He just necked in front of the whole crowd.
Bob Simon (54:28):
Necked it.
Jakob Norman (54:29):
Now, if we could have a president like that, I think we'd be on a better path right now.
Bob Simon (54:32):
We would be in a better path.
Mauro Fiore (54:32):
Well, Biden right now is just drinking Geritol and what's that? Neuriva, the stuff that's like the vitamins for your brain.
Bob Simon (54:44):
What?
Mauro Fiore (54:44):
They're going to give him some Neuriva.
Courtney (54:47):
Good job guys, great present, I love it.
Bob Simon (54:49):
Thank you ladies and gentlemen for watching this banter.
Mauro Fiore (54:52):
Yes, thank you.
