Jefferson Fisher (00:00:00):
Every once in a while, I'll have a hard time making a video just for whatever. I'm tired and I got it done. And in my mind, it was, "Hey, I got a video done. It's going to help people." I try to think of one person that's going to help. In my mind I'm like, okay, I've helped that person. Let me give them that. Well, within the first five seconds, The Rock commented on it and was like, "Amen, brother," and fist pounded with a whiskey glass.
Michelle Iarusso (00:00:26):
And I want to let you know that I used your tactic yesterday.
Jefferson Fisher (00:00:29):
Did you?
Michelle Iarusso (00:00:31):
I was having a conversation with an opposing counsel. It was an email exchange. You never know the tone. And I literally asked them, I was like, "That sounds insulting. Did you mean it to be that way?" And they said, "No, I just blah, blah, blah, blah." And I was like, "Okay, great. So let's keep..." We're negotiating the terms of a settlement agreement in a very contentious case. But-
Jefferson Fisher (00:00:52):
It worked?
Michelle Iarusso (00:00:53):
It did. Because it diffused everything.
Jefferson Fisher (00:00:55):
That's awesome.
Michelle Iarusso (00:00:56):
Yeah.
Jefferson Fisher (00:00:56):
That makes me so happy.
Michelle Iarusso (00:00:56):
Thank you.
Jefferson Fisher (00:00:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
Bob Simon (00:00:59):
That's why I do believe that what you're teaching is so useful for lawyers, especially law students.
(00:01:25):
Welcome to this episode of Bourbon of Proof, where we like to talk law and life with people that have been successful at both. And today, we're very honored to have none other than the Jefferson Fisher.
Jefferson Fisher (00:01:35):
Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here.
Bob Simon (00:01:37):
Flew in from Texas this morning?
Jefferson Fisher (00:01:39):
Very early this morning.
Bob Simon (00:01:40):
Is it a red eye?
Jefferson Fisher (00:01:41):
It was not, but it should have been. But I left the house at 4:00. I was like, "Look, I got somewhere to be."
Bob Simon (00:01:47):
That would've been 2 A.M. here then?
Jefferson Fisher (00:01:49):
Yes, it would've.
Bob Simon (00:01:51):
Well, there's nothing better than drinking bourbon in this room.
Jefferson Fisher (00:01:53):
Yeah, nothing better to help with the jet lag.
Bob Simon (00:01:57):
We also brought back Michelle Iarusso, who was on episode three of Bourbon Approved.
Michelle Iarusso (00:02:00):
Thank you for having me.
Bob Simon (00:02:01):
She came camera ready. And thank you very much to Charles Liu, Tom Hardy for giving us the private bar here at Bike Shed. Fantastic location. We had a very nice croissant. We'll have a burger there, and maybe a tattoo and a nice shave because you could do all those things here at the Bike Shed.
(00:02:17):
We like to start off by drinking some bourbon. I brought you, this is the Peerless Small Batch Bourbon. But why it's special, this is signed by Corky Taylor IV. The signed bottle is, he's a fourth generation whiskey, Taylor family famous in Kentucky for, but Corky Taylor IV signed this bottle and I'm opening it for today for Jefferson Fisher, because he comes from a long distinguished line of lawyers.
Jefferson Fisher (00:02:48):
Very cool. I love it.
Bob Simon (00:02:50):
How many generations of lawyers do you guys have?
Jefferson Fisher (00:02:52):
I'm fifth, fifth generation attorney. My dad's an attorney. My grandfather was a DA for a long time, still an attorney. And my great-grandfather was a federal judge of the Eastern District of Texas, before it got split. And then so he practiced law with his father. I still have those old leather books, original leather on the inside. They have Fisher & Fisher written in them because at that point in time, books, like law books, that was the key to say what the law was. We didn't have Westlaw or Lexis or anything. And then he, he's older, that his grandfather was just known as a law man. It wasn't... Yeah, it was like a mix-
Bob Simon (00:03:38):
Did he wear one of those stars with a circular, like Texas?
Jefferson Fisher (00:03:39):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure... He was like half sheriff, half maintain of the law. That was the thing.
Bob Simon (00:03:46):
He was a law?
Jefferson Fisher (00:03:47):
Yeah, that's just all we know.
Bob Simon (00:03:50):
Jefferson, grab yours. Michelle, here's yours.
Michelle Iarusso (00:03:52):
Thank you.
Bob Simon (00:03:52):
First of all, cheers to... We're filming this in the morning, so-
Jefferson Fisher (00:03:57):
Very cool.
Bob Simon (00:03:57):
You have to look her in the eye. She's very, very-
Michelle Iarusso (00:03:59):
It's superstitious. Thank you.
Jefferson Fisher (00:04:00):
I'm in it.
Bob Simon (00:04:06):
Pretty good, Corky.
Jefferson Fisher (00:04:08):
Corky knows his stuff.
Bob Simon (00:04:09):
Corky knows what's up.
Jefferson Fisher (00:04:10):
Yeah, he does.
Bob Simon (00:04:11):
For those of you that do not know Jefferson, he's kind like the peacemaker of lawyers. What would you describe-
Jefferson Fisher (00:04:18):
That's fine. I'll take that.
Bob Simon (00:04:20):
Jefferson blew up on social media, just helping people resolve disputes, just quick tips.
Jefferson Fisher (00:04:25):
Yeah, quick tips on how to argue, how to reduce conflict in your life. That's really how it got started.
Bob Simon (00:04:31):
You're trial lawyer for many years, still are. Now you have, on Instagram, 2.8 million followers, more on TikTok. You have a book deal now. You're in the manuscript as part of this. Wild.
Jefferson Fisher (00:04:44):
Yeah, it's wild. I cannot believe it. Now it's, the Facebook's taken off, LinkedIn's taken off. I have about 6 million total on social media. And then with the book deal with Penguin Random House, that just blew my mind.
Bob Simon (00:05:03):
How did that work? Did they reach out to you or how's that?
Jefferson Fisher (00:05:06):
No, so I get a lot of emails from book agents. It's pretty common that agents want to find people that have something to say, what kind of voice. The key is you have something to say that can be put in a book, can be written down. And I had seen lots of different agent requests. I'm always thrown at somebody wanting to be my agent or manager of something. And this person that resonated me with, her name was Tess with Europa. And she was just super, just down to earth and wonderful.
Bob Simon (00:05:36):
Did she just slide into your DMs?
Jefferson Fisher (00:05:39):
Oh no, it was an email. It was an email.
Bob Simon (00:05:40):
Wow, how archaic.
Jefferson Fisher (00:05:42):
Yeah, right, right. I get lots of... It's mostly emails or at LinkedIn. And so I just started talking to them and they represent. What did it for me is they represent a lot of big celebrities and people that I follow and that I like. And she's like, "I think you'd be awesome at it."
(00:06:03):
At the time, I was trying to self-publish a book because the followers were like, "You need a book." It's like, okay, I'll figure out how to write a book.
Bob Simon (00:06:10):
I think he showed me a year ago.
Jefferson Fisher (00:06:12):
I did.
Bob Simon (00:06:13):
We had a discussion just, because we met on Instagram. First time I met you in person was today. He showed up my door, knocked on the door. I felt like I knew him. I was like, "Hey, what's up man?"
Jefferson Fisher (00:06:21):
Well, I think we met, what's the place?
Bob Simon (00:06:24):
I don't know.
Jefferson Fisher (00:06:25):
I think we met maybe in Atlanta at Chris?
Bob Simon (00:06:29):
At Chris for a second?
Jefferson Fisher (00:06:30):
Yeah, for a hot second. You had put together this little meet-and-greet thing I think is what it was.
Bob Simon (00:06:35):
Oh, the one where had the violinist play the hip-hop? Did you-
Jefferson Fisher (00:06:38):
I think so, yes. I was there.
Bob Simon (00:06:41):
I was going to bring it back to Law-Di-Gras, because that guy was all... Were you there? Were you in Atlanta for this event?
Michelle Iarusso (00:06:44):
I was not in Atlanta.
Jefferson Fisher (00:06:44):
We got a hip-hop stuff, right?
Bob Simon (00:06:45):
Yeah, he hip-hop on the violin. This guy's next level.
Jefferson Fisher (00:06:48):
He was baller. It was really good. And so anyway-
Bob Simon (00:06:52):
We know you hate music, Michelle.
Michelle Iarusso (00:06:54):
Despise it.
Jefferson Fisher (00:06:54):
That's what I've heard. I heard you a big anti-music.
Michelle Iarusso (00:06:57):
I will not be dancing at Law-Di-Gras.
Jefferson Fisher (00:07:00):
They said, "Hey, we think you should write a book." I said, "Well, I'm trying to self-publish this." And they're like, "You really should not. Here's why." And all of it made sense. And so what you do is you write a book proposal. You have to write chapter by chapters like a 40-page, single-space document on everything you want your book to be about.
Bob Simon (00:07:18):
Single space or 1.2?
Jefferson Fisher (00:07:19):
No, I wish it was. I tried to sneak a little bit more. No, that's not how it goes. And so you make a book proposal. You have this document that outlines everything about you, everything about your vision for the book, why this book, why now? And then what you do is through your agent, you send them out to all the big top five, all your publishers that you want to do it with.
Bob Simon (00:07:42):
Well, Penguin, they're the ones that picked it up. Isn't that the biggest one? It has to be.
Jefferson Fisher (00:07:45):
Yeah, it's the biggest one. Penguin and Random House combined. But what you do is you issue them out and it's an auction essentially. First, you set it up as meetings. They take a meeting with you, which is a good sign. And keep in mind, you have your big labels like Penguin Random House. You then have imprints is what they call them. Imagine like Procter and Gamble as the umbrella, and Kraft and everybody is their different little-
Bob Simon (00:08:11):
And Golden Books? That's who I like to publish my book.
Jefferson Fisher (00:08:16):
Then you have HarperCollins, you have all their different versions because each imprint is a different personality. Somebody just does fiction, somebody just does memoirs. It's all that. You do that and then once you get meetings, I had a just slew of Zoom calls, like 30-minute Zoom calls and then they did on your book.
Bob Simon (00:08:39):
Wow.
Michelle Iarusso (00:08:42):
Can you tell us what it's about?
Jefferson Fisher (00:08:44):
I can. Yeah, I can.
Michelle Iarusso (00:08:44):
It's not a secret?
Bob Simon (00:08:45):
First of all, do you follow Jefferson on social?
Michelle Iarusso (00:08:47):
I do. I do. I shared one of your, I think it was dealing with drama.
Jefferson Fisher (00:08:54):
That's possible. I've done a lot. But it might've been either the one about somebody being rude or how to handle toxic people.
Michelle Iarusso (00:09:03):
It was something where you asked the person if they really meant what they just said, something like that.
Jefferson Fisher (00:09:07):
Rude. If you're not sure if somebody's rude, did you mean for that to come across blah, blah, blah?
Bob Simon (00:09:13):
The way that you just said it, you affect the way that you do it. And if you ever watch Jefferson, he's literally just shooting selfie videos in his truck. Right?
Jefferson Fisher (00:09:20):
That's perfect explanation.
Bob Simon (00:09:21):
Really, but it's just how to deescalate or how to do these simple solves of humans. And I remember you came over from TikTok on Instagram, and within a month had a million followers. And I remember when you posted The Rock was following you, and I was like, what the fuck did you do?
Jefferson Fisher (00:09:38):
It was absolute in my life. I didn't feel like it was real for a minute. It was a very surreal moment. Still is. But very quickly my social media just went from here to zoom, just up in the air. That's why when I tell people this was not something I... I've been working for this since I was a boy kind of thing. It's not like a dream I've ever had.
Bob Simon (00:10:01):
Well, do you think this would've happened had COVID not occurred?
Jefferson Fisher (00:10:07):
I'd say probably so, just because anybody can put content out there. I think COVID has only increased those who are wanting to put out content in general.
Bob Simon (00:10:15):
But for you specifically, because you as a trial lawyer being you have your own firm. I know when it shut down for me, I was a lot... That's when I did a lot more social media, because I had time.
Jefferson Fisher (00:10:27):
I hear what you're saying. I didn't do mine until after COVID.
Bob Simon (00:10:30):
Wow. You're that new to the-
Jefferson Fisher (00:10:37):
Yeah, it wasn't until after COVID.
Michelle Iarusso (00:10:38):
That's really impressive.
Jefferson Fisher (00:10:40):
It was beginning of, what year is this, '23?
Michelle Iarusso (00:10:45):
'23.
Jefferson Fisher (00:10:46):
I started this the beginning of '22.
Bob Simon (00:10:49):
Crazy.
Michelle Iarusso (00:10:53):
Oh my god.
Bob Simon (00:10:53):
No.
Michelle Iarusso (00:10:53):
It's just been over a year, a year and a half?
Jefferson Fisher (00:10:53):
Yeah. January '22. The end of January '22 is when I made my first, "Hey, I'm Jefferson, I'm starting new law firm. Hey, friends." Because at the moment, I had 80 friends who were just all people I went to law school with. You had people would be like, "Oh, that's awesome."
Bob Simon (00:11:09):
And I remember people were always kind of jealous about folks that have large social media followings or whatever. And I was telling, I knew Jefferson for a couple of years, we were talking and stuff like this and people are like, "Oh, he's paying for those followers or those views." I'm like, "Guys, he's not. You can see," because when it's real and it's not. When you have 2,000 comments of real people and shares, you can't fake that. And it was-
Jefferson Fisher (00:11:33):
Yeah, I've never paid for anything.
Bob Simon (00:11:35):
I know, but that's crazy.
Michelle Iarusso (00:11:36):
Was there one video that did it? Was there one that went viral?
Jefferson Fisher (00:11:40):
Good question. I had four. I started the social media-
Bob Simon (00:11:46):
By the way, you guys have to drink. This is part of the show.
Jefferson Fisher (00:11:48):
Oh, sorry. Well, I mean we're still talking.
Bob Simon (00:11:50):
... talking, talking and start drinking. This is how... By the way-
Jefferson Fisher (00:11:53):
Hey, you asked me to come here.
Bob Simon (00:11:54):
If I were on your show or your part of your platform, I would just say resolve conflict by drinking.
Jefferson Fisher (00:12:00):
Oh, I'll add that to my list.
Bob Simon (00:12:04):
No, don't.
Jefferson Fisher (00:12:04):
I started it my first video, January of '22. But that was just me trying to figure out the app. I didn't start my first how to argue a lawyer video until April of '22. And even then I didn't know how to do it. It was rough. And I would make one every two weeks. I didn't know what I was doing.
Bob Simon (00:12:24):
But what was the purpose that you were doing it for?
Jefferson Fisher (00:12:27):
At the time, it was I thought I wanted do it because I wanted to grow my law firm. Like hey, I'm a youngish guy, I just started my own law firm. I need to get out there. There's no excuse not to be on social media in this day and age.
(00:12:39):
And when I first did it, I paid my friend to film me, a buddy of mine who's a videographer. I was like, "I need to do a TikTok style." At that time that real quick transition TikTok style of-
Bob Simon (00:12:51):
Which I hate by the way, but it's fine.
Jefferson Fisher (00:12:52):
It was all about that. And I was like, this is what I need to do, top three things to do in an accident. So original, right?
Bob Simon (00:13:03):
Get a police report.
Jefferson Fisher (00:13:05):
So original, and I filmed it and then after I posted it, how many people liked it? Zero. How people saw it? Zero. And I was like, I paid money for nobody to... More people saw me in my car than they did in this me paying somebody. And so I kind of had this big paradigm shift of why am I even here? What's the whole point of, why I'm on this earth and not just to be an attorney, but what's my purpose? What's my motivation?
(00:13:40):
And that really just opened my eyes to you know what, forget trying to find the best looking camera, the best looking studio, the best looking like I'm just going to do it in my truck because that's the only time I can do it. I didn't have an office. I was going coffee shop to coffee shop.
Bob Simon (00:13:54):
It's funny, when people ask you, where's your office?
Michelle Iarusso (00:13:59):
I don't have one.
Bob Simon (00:14:00):
Exactly. I always say, I'm here. I don't know what else to tell you. Most lawyers, the best ones don't. Why would you need an office?
Jefferson Fisher (00:14:07):
And I had just come from a very traditional law firm.
Bob Simon (00:14:11):
Why did you break away? Obviously, your folks were lawyers.
Jefferson Fisher (00:14:15):
My dad is, yeah. I and my dad was at that same firm. My dad had been there for 35 years, and it was like a year of me trying to talk to him of, there needs to be some changes. I don't think this is for me. I was starting to get more plaintiff cases and I was just getting called to do. I felt like I was running with a parachute. I was ready to go. And in a lot of red tape with a traditional defense firm, it's just not going to happen.
Bob Simon (00:14:41):
I can't get this lid off. It is new bottle. Ready?
Jefferson Fisher (00:14:43):
I've been on my tonal, so if you want to-
Bob Simon (00:14:47):
He was at my house today. We both have a tonal.
Michelle Iarusso (00:14:48):
What's a tonal?
Jefferson Fisher (00:14:50):
It's like a mirror workout gym where they put it against the wall and you use the arm.
Bob Simon (00:14:53):
It's all pulley system and it is amazing. You could do anything on this.
Michelle Iarusso (00:14:57):
What is it have to do with opening the whiskey bottle?
Jefferson Fisher (00:14:59):
Because he was having a hard time.
Bob Simon (00:15:01):
I got to work on my forearm.
Jefferson Fisher (00:15:03):
It was like a thud.
Bob Simon (00:15:05):
Yep.
Jefferson Fisher (00:15:05):
Yep.
Bob Simon (00:15:10):
You guys are going to finish this before recording. This next one, this is a Sam Houston, 15-year-old. This actually Marco Fiori brought this for you. Houston obviously, because you're from Houston. But the reason why we picked 15 years is because 15 years ago, whenever this bottle was essentially born, he couldn't even drink legally.
Jefferson Fisher (00:15:30):
I couldn't legally drink.
Bob Simon (00:15:32):
When you're in Texas, you can do whatever you want.
Jefferson Fisher (00:15:35):
The lawless state of Texas. Corky was good though.
Bob Simon (00:15:39):
It was very good. Well, we'll ask you what your bourbon of proof is at the end, so just remember your palate.
Jefferson Fisher (00:15:43):
All right. Remember-
Bob Simon (00:15:45):
We should bring out coffee beans, your port. It's okay to splash here.
Jefferson Fisher (00:15:50):
It's all good.
Bob Simon (00:15:51):
We mix. We splash The question you, I think-
Jefferson Fisher (00:15:55):
She's taking her time.
Michelle Iarusso (00:15:56):
Taking my time.
Jefferson Fisher (00:15:58):
The question that you asked, you said, is there a video that took off at that time? To lay the timeline, I had just January '22 started, kept going, kept going, and I was starting to gain followers. I had a thousand followers, I thought I'd made it. I was like, I'm good. I have a thousand people following me. This is nuts. And I kept going.
(00:16:15):
And then Christmas going to February of '23, that's this year, I had about four videos that all just decided to go nuts, videos that I had posted two weeks before and they just kept climbing and climbing and they were all feeding off each other. And I went from a hundred thousand followers to 1.2 in a week.
Bob Simon (00:16:40):
I remember when that happened because I go, good, you're on Instagram now or-
Jefferson Fisher (00:16:44):
Yeah. I think you even messaged me like, "Dude, what is happening?" I was like, I don't know.
Bob Simon (00:16:48):
I remember it was a Friday, it was somewhere at night, because I was back with the kids and I was texting you. I was like, "Bro, this is fucking out of control."
Jefferson Fisher (00:16:54):
And it was. It was. I was convinced that something wrong happened. Somebody in Instagram, like in a movie where the security guard falls asleep at the screens, somebody had poured coffee on my account. It just started to go nuts. I couldn't explain it. And I was gaining about 100,000 to 200,000 a day followers.
Michelle Iarusso (00:17:17):
What? That's insane.
Jefferson Fisher (00:17:18):
And I just would just hold my phone, I don't know.
Bob Simon (00:17:22):
All the DMs he gets a day has to be insane.
Jefferson Fisher (00:17:24):
It's a lot. It's a lot.
Bob Simon (00:17:26):
Now you're going to start having your chatbot funnel. Be able to-
Jefferson Fisher (00:17:30):
I know, and you're going to help me with that. That's what I need yourself with.
Bob Simon (00:17:33):
Yeah. Well, by the time this airs, Attorney [inaudible 00:17:38] will be live and you'll have a funnel opportunity just to send cases right into, I'll tell the lawyers to monetize and track all your scope.
Jefferson Fisher (00:17:46):
It's awesome.
Bob Simon (00:17:46):
Here we go. Finally, she's ready.
Jefferson Fisher (00:17:48):
There we go.
Bob Simon (00:17:49):
This is Mr. Sam Houston bringing us the city of Houston, which brought us Jefferson Fisher. By the way, he's so much a Texan. He was in my house today, I was walking around. He knew what kind of boots I had.
Michelle Iarusso (00:18:00):
Really?
Bob Simon (00:18:00):
He just brought up conversation.
Jefferson Fisher (00:18:01):
Yeah, I know what kind of boots he had.
Bob Simon (00:18:03):
But I didn't bring it up. He's like, "Oh my, a lot of case I have, I haven't gotten them yet or whatever." I said-
Jefferson Fisher (00:18:08):
They're in repair.
Bob Simon (00:18:08):
If you can see this on the show, I actually am so vain that I got my logo branded in there. This is what being drunk in Austin will do for you, at my sister's wedding.
Jefferson Fisher (00:18:18):
Did they come and bring them to you?
Bob Simon (00:18:19):
They got sent to me. I went to this pop-up shop and my wife and I had a few. And then a few thousand bucks later, these shoes show up at my door, I was like, "Oh, that was a good idea."
Jefferson Fisher (00:18:29):
It was. Look how fantastic it was.
Michelle Iarusso (00:18:29):
It was a great idea.
Jefferson Fisher (00:18:32):
All right, so this is the Sam Houston?
Bob Simon (00:18:34):
Sam Houston, 15-year-old.
Jefferson Fisher (00:18:35):
Awesome. Never heard of that. But I like it.
Bob Simon (00:18:42):
It's a Michelle thing.
Michelle Iarusso (00:18:43):
I was a bartender, so I'm superstitious about it.
Jefferson Fisher (00:18:45):
For how long?
Michelle Iarusso (00:18:46):
About 10 years.
Jefferson Fisher (00:18:48):
You'll just very lock eyes with me and not blink.
Michelle Iarusso (00:18:51):
Well, I was told that if you do not, you risk seven years of bad sex.
Jefferson Fisher (00:18:56):
Well, I'll definitely make note of that.
Bob Simon (00:19:01):
I want zero days of bad sex.
Jefferson Fisher (00:19:05):
Somebody out there is like, "That explain some things."
Bob Simon (00:19:07):
People are reevaluating.
Michelle Iarusso (00:19:09):
Now you understand why I?
Bob Simon (00:19:11):
I never had this one. This is a good one.
Jefferson Fisher (00:19:12):
It's really good.
Bob Simon (00:19:13):
This is-
Jefferson Fisher (00:19:13):
Go, on here.
Bob Simon (00:19:16):
103 proof. So this one's going to be, should feel hotter than the last one? It's always interesting because people don't realize how much alcohol is in some of these. Oh, actually I lied. I lied. This first one was 54%.
Jefferson Fisher (00:19:32):
Got it. Once everything started taking off and then I had more bigger names follow me and it just got really overwhelming really quickly, and just trying to hold on ever since.
Bob Simon (00:19:46):
Your law firm side of things? You started your own law firm, kind of hand-in-hand when this started.
Jefferson Fisher (00:19:52):
That's right.
Bob Simon (00:19:54):
How's that changed?
Jefferson Fisher (00:19:57):
I'll answer that with a little bitty rabbit trail.
Bob Simon (00:20:01):
Fishtail.
Jefferson Fisher (00:20:01):
Yeah, let's say that. My dad tried so hard to get me to stay and he eventually understood it wasn't going to be for me and I was going to leave.
Bob Simon (00:20:15):
Why? Why was that?
Jefferson Fisher (00:20:16):
Why I'd leave the firm?
Bob Simon (00:20:18):
Yeah. Why did you leave that firm? Why was it not for you?
Jefferson Fisher (00:20:22):
As I mentioned, it was just I wanted, social media wasn't really something to promote. It was very big on, I was also handling insurance defense and that's just like it was. I will say to its credit, I learned a lot of things on the defense side and how they evaluate cases and I also learned what it means to be a bad plaintiff attorney.
(00:20:45):
I knew where I could take advantage of just lazy attorneys who just weren't really pushing their case. It was also a matter of, I just didn't want to practice that anymore and I was getting to help real people and I felt that I would take cases pro bono and I'd have Mrs. Johnson just give me... Seriously, her crop of like here's some cucumbers that I have from the garden. I'm like, I feel more satisfaction in that than an adjuster saying, "Thanks, we'll close the file." And it's just like, "Well bye, guys." You know what I mean? There's not like, it wasn't that feeling.
(00:21:25):
And when I went off on my own, I was just by myself, coffee shop surfing and borrowing other friends' offices. And that April, my dad was like, "So would you ever consider bringing the old man on?" And I was like-
Bob Simon (00:21:42):
No way.
Michelle Iarusso (00:21:43):
What?
Jefferson Fisher (00:21:43):
I was like, "I've been trying to get you to... Yes, of course the answer is yes." He's like, "Well, it's going to be a lot of a project if we do." It's like, "Yeah, that sounds great. I'm all for it." He came and once he came, a few others from that firm came, because they were like, "We love what... We see what Jefferson is doing." By that time I had set my mission, my values of where I want to take everything, and I went from me to 10 people in a month. And that was just, you know how that is.
Bob Simon (00:22:17):
You got mouths to feed.
Jefferson Fisher (00:22:19):
Yeah. Then all of a sudden now I'm managing partner of like, I got to make sure we're doing good on payroll. Got to make sure we're good with this.
Bob Simon (00:22:26):
See, I manage my dad too, but it's a different. He's not a lawyer.
Jefferson Fisher (00:22:29):
Yeah, you still manage him?
Bob Simon (00:22:32):
You go [email protected]. By the way, email my dad. It'll be a good time. Good response. Single space, just-
Jefferson Fisher (00:22:39):
Attack it.
Bob Simon (00:22:40):
Oh, he's fucking hilarious.
Jefferson Fisher (00:22:42):
It was an amazing time, and we just continue to grow and now we've got 20 people, so it's awesome. I'm blessed. I really am. But all the same things that I know you've learned and you've learned over time is just scaling, just the managing part.
Bob Simon (00:22:59):
We all started our own firms. I have twenty-some lawyers. Michelle-
Michelle Iarusso (00:23:03):
I have one.
Bob Simon (00:23:03):
She just hired her.
Jefferson Fisher (00:23:04):
That's so awesome.
Michelle Iarusso (00:23:04):
Just hired my first lawyer.
Jefferson Fisher (00:23:05):
That's fantastic.
Bob Simon (00:23:06):
But it's a different thing. It is almost like it's harder where the bigger you are, the less say you have, even though it's your shop, it's just a different operation.
Jefferson Fisher (00:23:16):
I can see that. Well, it's been a blast.
Bob Simon (00:23:18):
As long as you're having fun, man.
Jefferson Fisher (00:23:19):
I'm having such a fun time and what it's allowed me to do, especially with some of the newer things that I've been able to do, is to delegate more of my own personal cases. You have your attorney hat, your managing partner running the show hat, and then you have your whole family. And now I have this whole social media side. And so now, it was like I just added more on my plate making these videos in my car, but I'm having a blast.
(00:23:50):
The creative side of it is I look back on it now and wonder why I really went into law, even though I love it, but my passion is just the creative side, whether it's music.
Bob Simon (00:24:00):
We talked about this off in the green room, the blue room, the gray room. What the fuck do we call this back here? The room in the back. It's awesome.
Jefferson Fisher (00:24:06):
It looked kind of brownish.
Bob Simon (00:24:07):
Brownish. Grayish, brownish. Your passion for helping people, trying cases. Same as you, we've had this discussion so often, but is that always what you want to do? I see Michelle. We didn't ever have that deep of a dive into it, but it was. We've gotten huge verdicts. I've probably tried 50 cases at this point, but you just had another huge verdict. Could you switch a gear tomorrow and not try any more cases?
Michelle Iarusso (00:24:35):
Probably. That's why I went to real estate development school. I took a class. After I got my verdict, I just took a course at USC. It was an intensive month just learning soup to nuts, how to develop multifamily and that. Yeah, it was really fun.
Bob Simon (00:24:50):
That's so smart too. But how about you, Jefferson? Could you not try another case and be satisfied with your life? I know you love and you'll still want do it.
Jefferson Fisher (00:24:59):
Yeah. I love the courtroom, but I think I love it because of the creative. I like thinking of different strategies and what I can say in front of the jury and the pause. There's also, you have the very technical strategy side of trial, but there's no good trial attorney who's also not a good storyteller, who's just... There's a part of theater, a part of just the whole momentum that goes behind it. That's what I love.
(00:25:24):
Yes, I could not have any more trials with the amount that I've had and leave it on the field, like I'm good.
Bob Simon (00:25:33):
I had to give myself a title at the firm. I was trial director for a while where I would find and pair the best people for that specific trial. I like the game planning more right now. It's like setting a play for a musical. You find the best talent for that audience.
Jefferson Fisher (00:25:45):
Now with your school you'll be able... Having taken those classes, now you can get as creative as you want.
Michelle Iarusso (00:25:52):
Oh, totally. Building things is creative. It's the same.
Jefferson Fisher (00:25:56):
Real estate is creative, thinking of there's just an empty plot of land, where we're going to put on it? It sounds the awesome.
Bob Simon (00:26:03):
I already know what I'm going to do with a plot of land next to my house if I ever get it. I've already mapped it out in my brain, told many people what I would do.
Jefferson Fisher (00:26:09):
Yeah, I'm sure.
Bob Simon (00:26:11):
I know exactly what I would do.
Jefferson Fisher (00:26:12):
But it's been a huge, huge blessing. The team that we have is phenomenal. The experience we have is great. I have zero complaints other than I would run faster if I could. You can only go as fast.
Bob Simon (00:26:29):
You got to have the support though.
Jefferson Fisher (00:26:30):
Yeah, if you don't have the support.
Bob Simon (00:26:32):
Well, you had a good comment before we talked. It was the g-forces comment, and I forget the context a bit it, but it was... How did it go?
Jefferson Fisher (00:26:39):
We talked about, this was in the car on the way here and he was like, well... You were saying how you've achieved so much and you truly have of what you're doing. I said, "Well, I'm at the much more bottom of the slope." And you said, "Well, you have a much faster trajectory." Well, with a faster trajectory, you have a lot heavier g-forces on you. You have that pain point of just feeling the immense weight of everything that's happening in my world, and my book has a deadline. I got to get it. You have to be intentional with family time and your kids.
(00:27:11):
You have a law firm that people are depending on you to set the direction. You have people that are DMing me constantly. I could check it now of like, what do you do in this situation? What do you do in this situation? That's just heavy weight of who's watching.
Bob Simon (00:27:23):
We now have to scale Jefferson Fisher.
Jefferson Fisher (00:27:25):
Yeah, Jefferson is just a brand now. Now, you have to like, "This guy is lame." The working title is Predicting Positive. The ability to predict your positive interactions and experiences in the conversation, communication with people. And I break it into really three main chunks. It's kind of a formula of your... It's finding like how you had to solve for X in school, you remember?
(00:27:52):
And so it's kind of that same concept, but you have aligning yourself versus alignment, meaning I align my own person before I'm going into the conversation. That's talking about maintaining your breath, how your muscles are, what are you saying to yourself? Then there's a part of communication which is connecting with the other person and feeding off of them. That talks about listening and not only pushing your message but how to interpret the message that you receive.
(00:28:20):
And then the other variable is fluidity. And that talks about there's other impact on communication. That could be timing or stress or job or things outside the communication of, even I could be in a conversation right now and even though you're listening to me, you're thinking about your kid and you're having to think of, well, she's got gym at X time and you're like, you're ready for me to finish. And you could be not hearing everything that I'm saying.
(00:28:51):
It's kind of like it is my formula for how I communicate and how I come up with all of my different advice that I have in my videos. I'm trying to give that to people so that they can come up with ones of their own.
Michelle Iarusso (00:29:05):
I love that. I cannot wait for this book and I cannot wait to give it to my teenagers.
Jefferson Fisher (00:29:10):
Oh, wow.
Michelle Iarusso (00:29:10):
I think they would really benefit.
Bob Simon (00:29:11):
Where did you learn this? Or is it just self-taught Jefferson Fisher?
Jefferson Fisher (00:29:15):
It is self-taught Jefferson Fisher and a lot of it is family. My dad is very diplomatic, so my dad is one of those that I could come in as a teenager, I'd be so mad at something that my mom did. "I can't believe this. My mom, she's so overbearing." And dad's like, "Okay, what are you going to do about it?" My dad was never somebody to get upset with me. My dad was always just very level-headed and his whole thing, he'd always say, "So?" And I'd be like, "Buh-buh-buh." And he'd go, "So?"
(00:29:46):
And then eventually I'd be like, "I don't know, I'll go to my room now." He instilled a lot of that behavior in me and I know that several of the things that I say are twists of words that I just like the wordplay of things.
Bob Simon (00:30:02):
The wordplay is very, very significant, how you frame it and what words you choose.
Jefferson Fisher (00:30:09):
Thank you. I feel like I try to at least for each video, come up with a turn of phrase to say it in a way that people haven't heard it before. Compare it to something else that they haven't heard it before. For example, how to handle crying in an argument. I say, just let it flow. And one thing I offered to say was my stress comes in liquid form, understanding that our stress comes in, it's just a detention.
(00:30:37):
The cry is a natural release in our body and the higher the tension, that's the tenseness in whatever is going on, the bigger the release that we need. I just like the word, a phrase, to turn the phrase.
Bob Simon (00:30:50):
Damn, it's good.
Michelle Iarusso (00:30:50):
Yeah. I'm going to have to go back and watch your videos for those phrases.
Jefferson Fisher (00:30:54):
I have a lot more videos than I used to. You could just have two thumb clicks, and that was it.
Bob Simon (00:31:00):
You're almost all reels on your Instagram or video.
Jefferson Fisher (00:31:02):
Yeah, I think that's all. At the time, that's all I knew I was supposed to do. I would Google it because for a while I would have, I had five videos on TikTok and you know how many views I got? Zero. Listen, your boy googled, why do I have zero views on TikTok? I'm dead serious. I really did. And I was like, how do I Instagram Reels on Google? I had no clue.
Bob Simon (00:31:25):
You know there's... This might be a little creepy, but you can actually use AI to replicate you. You could drop in all of the-
Jefferson Fisher (00:31:36):
Great. He's got a lot of things to do.
Bob Simon (00:31:37):
No, look, you can put all your truck selfie videos into the AI because I know this platform. And you could just type what you want Jefferson Fisher to say and you could time them. And you can just have all these ones come out and you can never film another video and they could just replicate. It could just be AI, AI bot Jefferson.
Jefferson Fisher (00:31:57):
That's what I should do for when I continue to build up my website. I can talk to AI Jefferson. What would Jefferson say?
Bob Simon (00:32:04):
That'll be your chat bot.
Jefferson Fisher (00:32:07):
That's what I get pretty regularly.
Bob Simon (00:32:10):
But this is what people, this is where we've been testing it, using that for training videos and for client videos, preparing for a deposition because you could change. You could just type in different talk, but it's like engaging with the actual lawyer, because this human connection is real. When you look at Jefferson Fisher in the eyes, I kind of melt a little bit. It's hard not to be engaged with them.
Michelle Iarusso (00:32:29):
Very charming.
Bob Simon (00:32:30):
Very charming. But most people aren't as charming.
(00:32:36):
This is, you've probably had this. You had the Garrison Brothers. This is a Texas, true Texan whiskey. This is one of the better ones. Whiskey is all dependent on where it's aged and the weather change, I think like this. You get a different taste for a different state. For instance, where I grew up, Pittsburgh, shitty whiskey. Not so good. I think it just doesn't have-
Jefferson Fisher (00:33:00):
Steel.
Bob Simon (00:33:01):
Steel? A plus, very nice steel, very nice. But whiskey, not so nice. There's one called Wigle, which is fucking terrible. By the way, Wigle, if you're listening, I'll still sponsor the show. But this is straight Texas. They got some honeybees on the back and it says born and bred.
Michelle Iarusso (00:33:19):
And I noticed they have the type of corn that they use on the side.
Bob Simon (00:33:22):
It says Hye, Texas. H-Y-E? Texas has very funny names of towns.
Jefferson Fisher (00:33:29):
Oh, yeah. We're all across the board. We are pretty big, so you got a lot of names to choose from.
Bob Simon (00:33:33):
Cheers.
Jefferson Fisher (00:33:39):
Cheers. Cheers. Wouldn't forget the eye.
Bob Simon (00:33:41):
Not cursed today. This one even smells different.
Michelle Iarusso (00:33:44):
Oh, that's very different.
Jefferson Fisher (00:33:47):
Different palate.
Michelle Iarusso (00:33:47):
Wow.
Bob Simon (00:33:48):
Wow.
Michelle Iarusso (00:33:49):
Very different.
Bob Simon (00:33:50):
It's almost like a chocolate at the end.
Michelle Iarusso (00:33:52):
Yeah, I was going to say it tastes like candy.
Jefferson Fisher (00:33:53):
Have you been to the T? You probably have it, but there's a TX. You heard of the TX whiskey? It's cool. It's a place. They have a beautiful facility up in Dallas. Anyway, that just came to mind. End of story.
Bob Simon (00:34:09):
End scene. Have you upgraded your truck since you started these videos?
Jefferson Fisher (00:34:17):
My truck died.
Bob Simon (00:34:18):
No.
Jefferson Fisher (00:34:18):
Yeah, it's okay. I had a nice funeral and everything for it. I just had a truck and first, the transmission died, so I replaced the transmission because I believed in the truck that much. And then the engine died and I was like, okay, I think it's my sign. And so we got a new vehicle and I am driving that, so it's fine.
Bob Simon (00:34:45):
What's your truck of choice? Come on. I want to know the Texan truck of choice.
Jefferson Fisher (00:34:48):
Oh, it depends. It depends who you talk to. So some people say-
Bob Simon (00:34:51):
I'm talking to Jefferson Fisher.
Jefferson Fisher (00:34:52):
That's true. That's true. Well, the Chevy and a Ford are like this. If you're a Chevy guy, you're a Ford guy. And GMC is over here. GMC is more like all hat, no cattle, meaning you like to look fancy, but you actually don't know how to have-
Bob Simon (00:35:07):
All sizzle, no steak, we say.
Jefferson Fisher (00:35:09):
There you go. That's very L.A.
Bob Simon (00:35:10):
Here it's the same, the Denali. Oh, well you just want to put... Many of these people would look cool.
Jefferson Fisher (00:35:17):
Yeah, Denali. I'll just have it all black, please. I like the Chevy and GMC side of things, but my dad had a... I started with an old Dodge as I drove my parents old suburban forever. That's what I drove to college in. My parents, the one that we went to Yellowstone in, that I told you about?
Bob Simon (00:35:36):
Oh, we were telling the stories of like he's never been out of the country, never been out of the country. And then also-
Jefferson Fisher (00:35:44):
I'm very cultured.
Bob Simon (00:35:45):
Yeah. We used to drive for family vacations. We would do the 12-hour drive to Myrtle Beach from Pittsburgh in our converter van. And they did a 24-hour drive to Yellowstone.
Jefferson Fisher (00:35:53):
That's so bad. We were just packed in there.
Bob Simon (00:35:57):
But it was so much fun. How much fun was that?
Jefferson Fisher (00:35:58):
I have so many fun memories from that trip as a kid. Now my dad probably would have different-
Bob Simon (00:36:04):
Dude, if I put myself in my dad's shoes now, I'd be like I would've shrunk. Because my little brother at one point, I remember he actually, he was biting people back there. He was probably four or five and he kept biting people. My dad's like, "Do it again," he being... Brandon hates being spun. Till this day, rollercoaster. I think it's because my twin brother and I, we put him in very claustrophobic situations and you used to spin him around, pick them up, and he's very afraid.
(00:36:29):
My dad was like, "I'm going to pull this car over. I'm going to spin you on the side of the road if you do it again." We were like fucking North Carolina. And he bites my cousin, Jason. My dad pulls over in the rain, pulls him out of this band and picks him up and he just spins in a circle like five times. I'll never forget it, core memory. And he's crying. He sits the back, he's like, "I won't do it again, dad. I'm sorry." He spun, it was so funny. But he bit Jason. Well, why would you bite Jason?
Jefferson Fisher (00:36:56):
Yeah, why Jason? Of all people to bite.
Bob Simon (00:36:59):
Jason Simon. He now lives in North Carolina. What a weird fate.
Jefferson Fisher (00:37:03):
Good for him.
Bob Simon (00:37:04):
All those he bit, he now lives.
Jefferson Fisher (00:37:06):
As old as four, I was like mom and dad in the front, me, and then I'd have my youngest brother who's still in the car seat. Car seats had the thing in the front, it had a big hand rest in the front. And then my brother and sister, and I was pretty much, I was the oldest. I was like the den mother. That means anytime we went somewhere, I was like I had to divvy out the McDonald's. I had to open every container.
Bob Simon (00:37:32):
Yeah, I was the same, but I took a tax. I took a bite, get it back to the kids. And that's why I was a fat kid.
Jefferson Fisher (00:37:40):
You took a few fries. Well, you turned out all right. You look good.
Bob Simon (00:37:43):
That's because of that tonal.
Jefferson Fisher (00:37:44):
Yeah, the tonal. That's exactly what he's doing.
Bob Simon (00:37:47):
No, it's not.
Jefferson Fisher (00:37:48):
Yeah. The fact that anybody can make a video and then it just leads you to your life trajectory has been... I've been thinking on that a lot recently, that had I never just got in my car and looked at myself in the phone. I wouldn't be here. But anybody can make anything really at any time because I was just as anybody.
Bob Simon (00:38:15):
I'll tell you, I see a lot of people try to do what you do. And the difference is that you mean well from an altruistic place, with the advice that you're giving and you can tell what's genuine. It's stuff that you've thought a lot about. It's not somebody that does...
(00:38:29):
This is why I don't like the TikTok. Oh, throw a ball, catch it. Newer over here, do this. They're trying too hard. They're not authentic. And I think you're very... My wife watches your video and she's like, "I love this guy. I could talk to him for hours," and she's just watching 15-second reels.
Jefferson Fisher (00:38:47):
That's cool.
Bob Simon (00:38:48):
Don't talk to my wife when you come to my house later.
Jefferson Fisher (00:38:52):
I won't. I promise. Well, I appreciate that and I'm glad to hear that that resonates. And that is when you mentioned that earlier of why did you get into it, when I had that paradigm shift, that's what really, I stopped trying to sell to people and just whatever I can give. And if it wasn't communication advice, it would've been anything else. Because I think any other attorney, if their big thing was like sweet tea, they just want to go places and review sweet tea, you'll find other people who like sweet tea and you'll get a following.
(00:39:26):
But if you try to sell to them of have you been hurt, here are the three things to do, call me at whatever, you're not going to find a base. Nobody wants to be sold to. But if you just give free value, and it just so happens that I just really love and have a passion for communication. I've always had a knack for it. I learned a lot from my dad. I learned a lot as being the oldest of four in my life experiences. And I just like it.
Bob Simon (00:39:49):
What of your life experiences or things other than being a lawyer? Because we talk a lot as lawyers. We communicate a lot, but what led you up to... What kind of shit were you doing in grade school, high school? Who was Jefferson Fisher back then?
Jefferson Fisher (00:40:06):
Jefferson was really big into being a big brother. He still is. There's an 11 years difference between me and my youngest brother. And that meant I was like a second dad. My mom or dad could tell them to do something and then they would look at me and be like, yeah. Or something would happen and I'd come to him...
(00:40:26):
Say they need to apologize. And they're like, "I'm not going to do it to my parents." They're like, "I'm not going to apologize." And if I come to him and I'm like, "No, you really need to apologize. That was rough." And they're like, "Oh, okay." You know what I mean? It's just a different feeling with a sibling. And when they were kids, my sister and brother would argue over my sister's Polly Pockets or whatever.
Bob Simon (00:40:46):
I hate Polly Pockets.
Jefferson Fisher (00:40:47):
They got into everything.
Bob Simon (00:40:49):
They were this big and you lose shit all the time.
Jefferson Fisher (00:40:51):
You lost everything. I didn't understand it.
Bob Simon (00:40:53):
At least Legos, you could stick together.
Jefferson Fisher (00:40:55):
But it's that, "Okay, well who had it first?" "Okay, what did you..." And then you have to mediate that in a sense. And then one of my younger brothers, he couldn't pronounce his consonants, so I became an interpreter for him to my... My parents were like, "What did he say?" I'm like, "Oh, he wants this and this." You get to read their nonverbals or he can't... I would repeat things back to him, "Is that what you need?" "Yeah." You get to just evolve into that.
(00:41:24):
I was big into speech in high school and then I did mock trial in law school, but I've always been the dad of my friend group, the dad of the siblings.
Bob Simon (00:41:35):
That's what I get called, the dad. I like when there's another, I do a lot of coordinating trips. I end up being the dad that makes sure everybody's in the right place, that everything's on point. And then I was on a trip recently and there was another dad and I'm like, "Oh my god, I feel a lot less pressure."
Jefferson Fisher (00:41:47):
The spidey sense, you'll just see each other.
Bob Simon (00:41:49):
We're like high-fiving, like let's go everyone. It was leading a flock. Just a little bit more and it was okay.
Jefferson Fisher (00:41:57):
Yeah, that was a big part of it too. And also I just think I just really have a gift for it. As weird as that is, some people are very good at math and just understand economics. I had a friend of mine who he's like, "Yeah, of course, here's supply and demand." I'm like, "What? What are you talking about?" But this is my thing.
Bob Simon (00:42:19):
Do you feel that imposter syndrome? You have to feel that at times.
Jefferson Fisher (00:42:26):
Oh yeah, of course. I think anybody does. But I definitely do. The bigger the following, the more I'm like, "I don't know what I'm doing." I've just fooled all these people thinking I know-
Bob Simon (00:42:38):
One of the funnier things I saw, because you always have the same look when you're in your truck. And at some point, he was shot from another angle and people didn't know who he was because he was like, "It's not my side of my face."
Jefferson Fisher (00:42:47):
Right, yeah. Yeah, it was Louis Howell's podcast and they did like, I don't know the angle name, but it was kind of a half side profile where you're looking at me and people are like, "I did not recognize you."
Bob Simon (00:43:01):
We have the profile for you in that camera. That was your profile.
Jefferson Fisher (00:43:06):
Everybody would be used to me here. That's all they see is this. But as soon as I go like this, people lose their minds. Every comment I got was, "I did not recognize you. I did not recognize you."
Michelle Iarusso (00:43:17):
That's so funny.
Jefferson Fisher (00:43:17):
I heard your voice. I recognize your voice, I didn't recognize who you are.
Bob Simon (00:43:22):
We're doing a new hire and had this recruiter and we were trying to find a specific role. And she was like, "Oh my god, do you know Jefferson Fisher?" I'm like, "Yes. Why?" She's like, "I just saw him on the Foster Sisters show." And I was like, "This is all right." I don't think I told you, this was Saturday because I was in this conversation.
(00:43:39):
I was like, "I'm actually going to see him on Thursday." And she was gushing over this attorney because she's like, "Oh, you're an attorney that does this media stuff? Do you know Jefferson?" I'm like, "The fuck, I know Jefferson." Small world man.
(00:43:52):
But it shows you she's outside of law. She's just recruiting. She does talent recruitment for mostly media artists, so finding Beyonce's assistant, EAs. This is her job and role and they know Jefferson Fisher.
Michelle Iarusso (00:44:08):
That's incredible.
Bob Simon (00:44:08):
Wild, dude.
Jefferson Fisher (00:44:09):
Yeah, it is weird. It's weird when I've seen celebrities that follow me or names that I've seen in shows. Or it's also funny to me when I have old friends or law school buddies who will be like, "Dude, my wife has been watching your stuff nonstop, just FYI." Or one sent me last night who I went to college with, he's like, "Dude, my mom just called me." And was like, "Hey, you need to get on to Instagram and follow this guy, Jefferson Fisher." And he's like, "Mom, he was my roommate for four years. What are you talking about?"
(00:44:47):
It comes in all different sizes. But anytime I see that, it's just a small world.
Bob Simon (00:44:54):
The end of the... We could talk for fucking hours. I feel like we could drink all day and do this. But I just want to figure out what's the future of Jefferson Fisher.
Jefferson Fisher (00:44:59):
The future?
Bob Simon (00:45:04):
How do you define happiness and how do you want to get there?
Jefferson Fisher (00:45:06):
That was quite the shift from the first question you asked.
Bob Simon (00:45:09):
But that should be your future.
Jefferson Fisher (00:45:10):
Yeah. What is happiness to me and how do I get there?
Bob Simon (00:45:15):
Yeah.
Jefferson Fisher (00:45:15):
Happiness to me, how I want to get there. I want to be able to take my kids wherever I can take. I want them with me at all times. Being a dad, I've always wanted to be a dad. And now that I am one, it's the best. Y'all are parents. And once you have that perspective, nothing else really matters all that much. They are now the filter for everything else. And a quote that I read, and I don't know where I read it was once-
Bob Simon (00:45:47):
Heathcliff. It was a cartoon.
Jefferson Fisher (00:45:49):
Was that what it was? That's probably right. It was that once your kids are born, you now exist as their memory. And it's like this, now everything you do will be a memory to them. They'll remember what you do, what you say.
Bob Simon (00:46:04):
I think about this every day because they're in the stage right now. Yours are five and three? I have six, three and one. The older ones, this is the core memory stage. Think of how many memories you have at that age. That, I remember forever. Every moment could be something that is, they'll think about for the rest of their life. My six-year-old now, I can't lie anymore. She came the other day because she figured I was the Grinch when we were tricking the kids one time. And I was like, "You better not tell your little sister."
(00:46:33):
But she was like, "I couldn't get over it." I was like, "You'll ruin this for her. You have to keep your mouth shut that I was the Grinch."
Jefferson Fisher (00:46:42):
And now she's in on it.
Bob Simon (00:46:42):
Yeah, and she's too much in on it. She saw I was the Easter Bunny one time. Did you notice that I was wearing my shoes, came on afterwards. I was like, "Remy." She was like four years old. I was like, "You shut your mouth."
Jefferson Fisher (00:46:49):
So perceptive, everything. Yeah, very much so.
Bob Simon (00:46:53):
I used a different voice. I did a lot of different things but I had my stupid-ass shoes on.
Jefferson Fisher (00:46:57):
Not fooling her.
Bob Simon (00:46:58):
Why is he wearing the rainbows?
Jefferson Fisher (00:47:00):
Yeah. It's just this, that quote always kind of lives in my head that once you have kids, you now exist to be their memory. And that just always hits me very hard of how I interact with my kids, what I want for them, how I want to be perceived by them. I give them the best that I can. I try to filter what I do of, would it make my kids proud? Whatever it is that I'm doing, would this make them proud later on? Because eventually when I'm gone, they're going to be accountable for it. I find that, okay, if I never monetize anything on social media, if I never do any of this and I just practice law and stay in my cubbyhole and that-
Bob Simon (00:47:44):
Cubbyhole.
Jefferson Fisher (00:47:44):
Yeah. You know what I mean?
Bob Simon (00:47:46):
I thought it was a Pittsburgh term, the cubby.
Jefferson Fisher (00:47:47):
Is it really? Yeah. We got cubbyholes.
Bob Simon (00:47:49):
Nice. You know what a cubbyhole is? You ever say that word?
Michelle Iarusso (00:47:51):
Yeah. I grew up having cubbyholes in kindergarten. You pick your stuff.
Jefferson Fisher (00:47:53):
Everybody's got cubbyholes.
Michelle Iarusso (00:47:54):
Yeah. You put your lunch bag in a cubbyhole.
Jefferson Fisher (00:47:56):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (00:47:57):
Wow. How about a creek?
Michelle Iarusso (00:47:57):
Nope. Oh, that's a stream.
Jefferson Fisher (00:47:57):
Like a creek? Yeah, creek is a creek.
Bob Simon (00:48:01):
You guys say creek.
Jefferson Fisher (00:48:02):
We all say creek.
Bob Simon (00:48:03):
Really?
Jefferson Fisher (00:48:03):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (00:48:04):
How about a sweeper or a vacuum?
Jefferson Fisher (00:48:06):
We say vacuum.
Bob Simon (00:48:07):
Yeah, sweeper. Gum band or rubber band?
Jefferson Fisher (00:48:09):
We say rubber band.
Bob Simon (00:48:10):
Gum band. See, I'm telling you, it's a little different. Do you clean the room or red up the room?
Jefferson Fisher (00:48:15):
We clean it.
Bob Simon (00:48:15):
Yeah, different.
Jefferson Fisher (00:48:16):
We fix a lot, fixing to do something. Fixing the sandwich. We say that a lot.
Bob Simon (00:48:22):
I love it.
Jefferson Fisher (00:48:23):
Yeah. We'll say I'm fixing lunch.
Bob Simon (00:48:25):
I want to go to Whataburger with Jefferson now.
Jefferson Fisher (00:48:27):
Yeah, we should. Whenever you're ready, we'll be fixing to do something. I really try to funnel, when you have kids, you notice that now all of a sudden, they are the filter for everything else. You have your kids and then immediately, in front of you is their filter of how's it going to affect them, what it's going to mean for them, what time do you have for them. And being with them and my family makes me really happy. And I would love to be able to travel with them because I didn't travel as a kid. I would love to be able to take them. You say, how do I get there?
Bob Simon (00:49:03):
Yeah.
Jefferson Fisher (00:49:04):
One, I put things in place of what I'm doing now. I think I told you this earlier, I feel like I'm in my positioning phase of I'm putting things out for free into the universe because I think it's the right thing to do. I think it's going to help the right people. And if that's enough, then that's enough. It's easy for me to somebody to say, "Why don't you monetize? You know that you could make X amount." It's easy to get in my head that way and I'm like, I don't want to post something and immediately try to see how much money it's made. To me, the-
Bob Simon (00:49:38):
You're talking about whenever there's a social media platform that can monetize-
Jefferson Fisher (00:49:42):
Yeah. I'm not talking about the backend stuff.
Bob Simon (00:49:43):
I agree. I do not like that. Do you know what I'm talking about? There's a lot of it. It depends on how much is shared or seen. You can actually monetize it. And these platforms pay you money based on how many times it's been seen, which I agree with Jefferson. I think information and content should be free and education should be free and then freewill after that.
Jefferson Fisher (00:50:05):
And I could do well if I turned on that switch. But I don't want me to judge my own content based on how much money I've made. I'll get somebody who comments, "This helped me so much in my day, or this is my favorite video, or this is exactly what I need to hear." If that's not good enough for you, then what are you doing?
Bob Simon (00:50:28):
Sometimes, I'll go through some of the comments just on your page, just as a lawyer interested to see how non-law... You have a lot of non-lawyers that comment mostly. And I'm interested to see their filter, their eyes and how they see communications. And I think it can make us better advocates and trial lawyers if we always think about how they're viewing things.
(00:50:50):
If you see when Jefferson frames stuff and I go through the comments, sometimes I like and engage a little bit with those because it's real folks. And as lawyers, we get too lost in what another lawyer thinks or what I think, then we don't matter. This isn't what we're here for. But this is, I like engaging in your page because it's people that are engaged with for the right reason.
Jefferson Fisher (00:51:13):
Right. And that's very... I'm glad that you do. It's nice to-
Bob Simon (00:51:18):
And also I get a lot of followers from it.
Jefferson Fisher (00:51:20):
That too. If you want some followers, just make a few comments. I'll like it for you. And then another... Yeah, just do that. Oh man, the other day, I know this is off-topic, but I was so mad. Every once in a while, I'll have a hard time making a video just for whatever. I'm tired.
Bob Simon (00:51:40):
Do you ever do a video about that?
Jefferson Fisher (00:51:41):
I probably could. But sometimes, I have a hard time letting things roll off the tongue. And I got it done. And in my mind it was, "Hey, I got a video done. It's going to help people." I try to think of one person it's going to help in my mind. I'm like, okay, I've helped that person. Let me give them that. But I didn't like the video. Of course, we're the biggest critics of social media, so I did not like the video.
(00:52:08):
Well, within the first five seconds, The Rock commented on it. It was like, "Amen, brother," and fist pounded with a whiskey glass.
Michelle Iarusso (00:52:18):
What?
Bob Simon (00:52:18):
No, it was tequila because of his brand. It wasn't whiskey, but it was the meme. He wrote probably whiskey and it came up the... He wrote tequila, but came up the whiskey glass.
Jefferson Fisher (00:52:28):
Let's say it was. It was his whiskey. It was his branded whiskey.
Bob Simon (00:52:31):
He's branded tequila.
Jefferson Fisher (00:52:32):
Oh, excuse me. He is. Thank you.
Bob Simon (00:52:33):
Told you. Come on, man.
Jefferson Fisher (00:52:33):
Sorry. Hey, I'm in Texas.
Bob Simon (00:52:33):
You're in Texas. You don't know tequila?
Jefferson Fisher (00:52:33):
I don't know.
Bob Simon (00:52:38):
You guys know tequila.
Jefferson Fisher (00:52:39):
But you got to go further south.
Bob Simon (00:52:42):
Houston's not too... You're on like a gulf.
Jefferson Fisher (00:52:44):
Well, I'm like an hour away from Houston, but it's easier to say Houston than where I actually.
Bob Simon (00:52:48):
Where are you actually from?
Jefferson Fisher (00:52:49):
A little bit north of Beaumont, very, very small.
Bob Simon (00:52:51):
I know Beaumont. Yeah. One of my best friends, Randy Wilson, who's South Bay Briskets. He makes his own brisket. He's also an expert witness.
Michelle Iarusso (00:52:58):
That guy who's always bringing the huge stuff back to your house?
Bob Simon (00:53:01):
Yes.
Jefferson Fisher (00:53:01):
He's from Beaumont?
Michelle Iarusso (00:53:01):
Oh my god.
Bob Simon (00:53:02):
He's from Beaumont. He lives down the... Let's meet up later today with Eddie. He's the definition of a big Texan.
Jefferson Fisher (00:53:07):
Big brisket, please.
Bob Simon (00:53:08):
Six-five. Actually, I have a lot of ribs in my fridge right now from this weekend.
Jefferson Fisher (00:53:12):
That's awesome. Dang, I don't know what we were talking about.
Bob Simon (00:53:15):
Beaumont, Houston and then being close to the gulf, Rock, fist pump.
Jefferson Fisher (00:53:20):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (00:53:21):
See, this is where the whiskey kicks in.
Michelle Iarusso (00:53:23):
Yes. It's definitely kicking in now.
Jefferson Fisher (00:53:26):
It was just a good lesson to me of you can't be the own judge of your own stuff. That kind of stuff happens, it's weird.
Michelle Iarusso (00:53:34):
And I want to let you know that I used your tactic yesterday. I was having a conversation with an opposing counsel and it was like an email exchange. You never know the tone. And I literally asked them, I was like, "That sounds insulting. Did you mean it to be that way?" And they said, "No, I just blah, blah, blah, blah." And it's like, "Okay, great. So let's keep..." We're negotiating the terms of a settlement agreement in a very contentious case. It's been a difficult thing-
Jefferson Fisher (00:54:03):
Awesome job.
Michelle Iarusso (00:54:03):
But I used it.
Jefferson Fisher (00:54:07):
It worked?
Michelle Iarusso (00:54:07):
It did, because it diffused everything.
Jefferson Fisher (00:54:08):
That's awesome. That makes me so happy.
Michelle Iarusso (00:54:10):
Thank you.
Jefferson Fisher (00:54:10):
Yeah, absolutely. Sounds like you're just rocking it.
Bob Simon (00:54:13):
That's why I do believe that what you're teaching is so useful for lawyers, especially law students, to understand. One of the best courses I took law school, it was... At Pepperdine, we had an alternate dispute resolution track we could take for another degree. Those had such good, there's a negotiation class and these were tactics, things you didn't think of like, "Oh fuck, that makes a lot of sense."
(00:54:40):
People should use these skills. Right now, lawyers are coming out of law school and thinking they have to be the strongest voice and have to be the biggest asshole in the room without no room to give. This is what... We shouldn't be teaching that. We shouldn't be teaching that.
Jefferson Fisher (00:54:59):
What they see are the billboard attorneys of, I'm going to fight for you get every dollar. They want it like, you know what I mean? I absolutely agree. I wish that there was some type of curriculum that was geared towards that of creating classes, at least one class that is almost required for them to go through this of some type of civility.
Bob Simon (00:55:22):
Civility. Siri, send a note that we're going to do a civility class at Jefferson Fisher and scale it.
Michelle Iarusso (00:55:29):
Think civility. I can't believe you were-
Bob Simon (00:55:29):
I was just talking to my Breitling because my Apple Watch...
Michelle Iarusso (00:55:31):
You're so nice.
Jefferson Fisher (00:55:32):
Well, I'm probably the most...
Michelle Iarusso (00:55:36):
How is he a defense attorney? How is that possible?
Jefferson Fisher (00:55:36):
I'm probably the most plaintiff defense attorney you'll meet.
Bob Simon (00:55:38):
How can I help you get paid?
Jefferson Fisher (00:55:42):
Hey, let me tell you what-
Bob Simon (00:55:43):
Write my evaluation.
Jefferson Fisher (00:55:44):
Plaintiff attorneys loved it when I had their case because, and that was a big breaking point for me of, I'm across the table of-
Bob Simon (00:55:53):
Somebody you want to help.
Jefferson Fisher (00:55:54):
Miss Johnson or whoever, and she's elderly and she's having a hard time. And you can just read it on her face. You can read the pain. And she has a son who's in prison. She has a daughter who doesn't want to talk to her and she's hurt. You know what I mean? You get to see their real heartache and struggle with people. And I tell the insurance company like, "Okay, you need to pay X." And they say, "No, we're going to pay Y." And I'm like, "You need to pay X." And they're on the computers, they don't get to meet her. They don't feel that pain. And that just did not sit well with me.
Bob Simon (00:56:27):
Do you have a chapter called Solve for X in your book?
Jefferson Fisher (00:56:32):
Chapter titles are up and down right now, but I do have a chapter that is devoted to breaking down the formula that is about solving.
Bob Simon (00:56:42):
I love it. I forget [inaudible 00:56:45]. I go back to our text exchange because you had a different working title than what you have right now.
Jefferson Fisher (00:56:49):
I did. And what was that?
Bob Simon (00:56:51):
I'll look back on my phone.
Jefferson Fisher (00:56:53):
I'll think of it. I'll think of it in a second.
Bob Simon (00:56:56):
But I like the working title. It was very good, whatever it was.
Jefferson Fisher (00:56:59):
I appreciate that. Penguin Random House was not a fan of it, so it's okay. They know what sells. I was like, look, I don't care what title it is, as long as it helps people.
Bob Simon (00:57:09):
I'm coming out with a book with trial guides, which probably will come out by the time this is here.
Jefferson Fisher (00:57:12):
I'm trying to think of the name.
Bob Simon (00:57:14):
I'll think of it.
Jefferson Fisher (00:57:15):
Oh, I remember it. I Beg to Differ.
Bob Simon (00:57:17):
Yes, that was it. That was it, I Beg to Differ. Great name.
Jefferson Fisher (00:57:20):
Yeah.
Michelle Iarusso (00:57:20):
They didn't like that?
Jefferson Fisher (00:57:20):
No.
Michelle Iarusso (00:57:20):
It sounds great.
Jefferson Fisher (00:57:20):
Yeah, they didn't like it.
Michelle Iarusso (00:57:25):
Wait, so what is the name now?
Jefferson Fisher (00:57:26):
Predicting Positive. That's going to change. Well, because I Beg to Differ doesn't... The reason why they also want to probably change Predicting Positive, it doesn't tell you what the book is about. They want some way to say how it's about communication, so that's how I came up with... I Beg to Differ was when I was doing the self-publishing route and then bigger names got involved. You're like, "Let's curb that."
Bob Simon (00:57:51):
It could be like, "Bless your heart."
Jefferson Fisher (00:57:52):
Yeah. You see that story I posted the other day, that lady that totally blessed my heart just like that?
Bob Simon (00:57:58):
No. Oh no, I did not.
Jefferson Fisher (00:58:00):
I was in line. I was at a place where you get salads, and I'm just waiting in line with this lady and she's right behind me and we're just being southern people talking to each other about whatever. And she's asked what I do. I said, "I'm an attorney and I also make, I do some social media." She goes, "Oh, where do you do your social media?" I said, "Well, I do it in my car." She goes, "Oh, well good luck with that."
Bob Simon (00:58:27):
Oh, really?
Jefferson Fisher (00:58:28):
She did. She patted me a little bit on the arm, "Well, good luck with that." And I was like, "Thank you, Doris. I appreciate that."
Bob Simon (00:58:36):
Was her name actually Doris?
Jefferson Fisher (00:58:37):
No. That's just in my head of what-
Bob Simon (00:58:39):
I give fictional names to everybody, by the way. People coming off on traffic, it's like, "Thanks, Bruce and Jeff."
Jefferson Fisher (00:58:45):
Yeah. You give them names. No, she was an absolute sweetheart and I know she meant well. But I was like, "Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it."
Bob Simon (00:58:52):
Bless your heart.
Jefferson Fisher (00:58:53):
Yeah. And so that was like, "Good luck with that." The way she said it was very much a bless-
Bob Simon (00:58:58):
My publisher for my... I'm doing a book on trying spine cases and I want to name it Small Disk Energy. And they're like no.
Michelle Iarusso (00:59:04):
No.
Bob Simon (00:59:05):
It's so good.
Michelle Iarusso (00:59:06):
No.
Jefferson Fisher (00:59:08):
Yeah, they're probably right on that. I think they're probably right.
Bob Simon (00:59:12):
Actually. I went and trademarked that and I got an Instagram-
Michelle Iarusso (00:59:15):
Small Disk Energies?
Bob Simon (00:59:16):
I'm going to have something with Small Disk Energy. It's so funny. I could know a lot of small disk energy.
Jefferson Fisher (00:59:21):
Yeah. That could be the uncut version.
Bob Simon (00:59:23):
It is. That's the undercut. These are the... By the way, I watched a Dial of Destiny last night.
Jefferson Fisher (00:59:29):
I haven't seen it.
Bob Simon (00:59:30):
Fantastic. The last Indiana Jones.
Jefferson Fisher (00:59:32):
Is it a movie? Okay.
Bob Simon (00:59:34):
But it's the fifth one they did. It was fantastic.
Jefferson Fisher (00:59:36):
Really? I'd tell you, I'm the worst movie watcher. You don't...
Bob Simon (00:59:39):
What do you do after the kids go to bed?
Jefferson Fisher (00:59:42):
I go to sleep, my man or I work.
Bob Simon (00:59:43):
I'm asleep by 8:30, but my kids are 7:30.
Jefferson Fisher (00:59:47):
I read. I'm not a big TV watcher.
Bob Simon (00:59:51):
We're going to end this with, what are you reading?
Michelle Iarusso (00:59:52):
Fiction? Nonfiction?
Bob Simon (00:59:52):
What are you reading?
Michelle Iarusso (00:59:52):
Yeah. What are you reading?
Jefferson Fisher (00:59:53):
Just typically nonfiction. I like self-help books, things that motivate me.
Michelle Iarusso (00:59:58):
Can you put out a book list? Because I would definitely read what you're reading.
Jefferson Fisher (01:00:01):
Oh yes, I could. I could definitely.
Michelle Iarusso (01:00:02):
I want to read what you're reading.
Jefferson Fisher (01:00:03):
I could definitely do that. But that's what I... I am one of those weird people that if I'm sitting here watch TV, I feel like I'm wasting my time. And it's a problem, my own problem.
Bob Simon (01:00:14):
But I was raised off the TV to a degree and I think that's where you get a lot of creativity.
Jefferson Fisher (01:00:18):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (01:00:18):
Wow, holy, that rhymed by the way.
Jefferson Fisher (01:00:20):
It was very good.
Bob Simon (01:00:21):
I should, yeah. We'll do a hip hop song.
Michelle Iarusso (01:00:23):
Trademark that too.
Jefferson Fisher (01:00:24):
Trademark and make an Instagram handle off of it.
Bob Simon (01:00:26):
All right. If you're watching... OCA, if you're watching, it's been... All right, so Jefferson, we're going to end this show with asking you, we've had the better of three fantastic brown liquors. And I asked you to change your palate and think about it. What is your bourbon of proof?
Jefferson Fisher (01:00:45):
If I had to choose, it would be the first one, the Corky bourbon of proof.
Bob Simon (01:00:50):
Really? All right.
Jefferson Fisher (01:00:51):
I thought that one was really good. Next would be the Sam Houston followed by the Hye. I'd do it in the exact order that we had.
Bob Simon (01:00:58):
I actually am the reverse.
Michelle Iarusso (01:01:01):
Same here, in reverse. I love this one. This is great.
Bob Simon (01:01:03):
I do too. This is the last one. It was my favorite, the Garrison Brothers.
Jefferson Fisher (01:01:06):
If we average them, we'd say that the Sam Houston was a little bit better.
Bob Simon (01:01:11):
This was, you know what? On this bottle, they have this BDAM. It's like best damn ad marketing agency. I got this bottle by mistake.
Jefferson Fisher (01:01:24):
Did you?
Bob Simon (01:01:24):
I think I know who this came from. Another lawyer marketing group, they send this out. They're like a mastermind in marketing for lawyers, and they sent her this whiskey set of things. She's like, "Bob, you like whiskey, right?" She DMs me, I'm like, "Fuck yeah. I like whiskey." She's like, "Somebody sent me this gift. I'm just going to redirect it to you."
Michelle Iarusso (01:01:46):
Nice.
Jefferson Fisher (01:01:46):
And that's how you got it.
Bob Simon (01:01:47):
Maria Monroy, thank you, because you redirected me this bottle that was actually signed by Corky Taylor IV that is now a conversation piece for a fifth generation Texan lawyer who is now the most famous Fisher. The most famous Fisher and for good because fame can use for good or evil or neutrality, and you choose to use it for good.
Jefferson Fisher (01:02:09):
That's right.
Bob Simon (01:02:09):
Jefferson Fisher, thank you for being on this episode.
Jefferson Fisher (01:02:11):
Absolutely.
Bob Simon (01:02:12):
We have proof we have no more whiskey to drink.
Jefferson Fisher (01:02:13):
It's all good.
Bob Simon (01:02:13):
We have a green or blue or burgundy room or whatever the fuck we want to call it. Buckle up.
Jefferson Fisher (01:02:19):
Yeah. Thank y'all so much.
Bob Simon (01:02:21):
Thank you, brother.
Michelle Iarusso (01:02:22):
Yeah.
