Maryann Gallagher (00:00):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (00:00):
So you're taking the bar-
Maryann Gallagher (00:00):
Sure.
Bob Simon (00:01):
... to try it-
Maryann Gallagher (00:02):
[inaudible 00:00:02].
Bob Simon (00:02):
... like a case that ends up being the benchmark for-
Maryann Gallagher (00:02):
Sexual harassment cases.
Bob Simon (00:05):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (00:06):
But I had no idea.
Bob Simon (00:06):
But what were your aspirations, at that time, going back-
Maryann Gallagher (00:09):
To go back to Philly, and be a federal prosecutor. That's what I wanted to do.
Bob Simon (00:09):
Federal prosecutor, but-
Maryann Gallagher (00:12):
So I was just here to work for a year, and then go back.
Bob Simon (00:15):
But when you wanted to be a federal prosecutor, did you think that's where it was going to end and stop with you? I mean, what were your aspirations, from the time you were 12, up to this point?
Mauro Fiore (00:22):
She just wanted to put away bad guys.
Maryann Gallagher (00:23):
I wanted to be... Yeah. My always goal was to be a mom and a lawyer. So I figured I'll be a prosecutor for a while, then I'll be a mom full-time, like that was my plan.
Bob Simon (00:23):
All things changed-
Maryann Gallagher (00:33):
All things changed.
Bob Simon (00:34):
... and ended up doing everything, at the same time.
Maryann Gallagher (00:34):
I know.
Bob Simon (00:44):
This is Benchmark Full Proof which is... This is-
Maryann Gallagher (00:47):
This is Grandpa. Thanks, Grandpa.
Bob Simon (00:48):
Yeah, you better not thank Grandpa for this one because it's 125 proof. So this-
Maryann Gallagher (00:52):
Oh, my God.
Bob Simon (00:54):
Yeah.
Mauro Fiore (00:55):
Whoa. I'm ready.
Bob Simon (01:05):
Welcome to this episode of Bourbon of Proof, where we share stories with those who have been successful at law and life, and we do so over all kinds of different spirits. Always whiskey, sometimes blended whiskey, sometimes bourbon, sometimes Finnish ryes, sometimes scotch. And I'm joined, as always, by my co-host, Mauro Fiore.
Mauro Fiore (01:23):
Hello. Hello, Maryann.
Maryann Gallagher (01:24):
Hi, Mauro.
Mauro Fiore (01:25):
Thank you-
Maryann Gallagher (01:25):
It's so good to see you.
Mauro Fiore (01:26):
... for coming, Maryann.
Maryann Gallagher (01:27):
So good to see you.
Bob Simon (01:27):
And we have a very esteemed guest on today, the trial lawyer of the year, mentor extraordinaire, badass in the courtroom, inside and out, Maryann Gallagher.
Maryann Gallagher (01:36):
Thank you. It's so good to see you guys.
Bob Simon (01:38):
So Maryann is wearing her reds.
Mauro Fiore (01:41):
Her famous red Converse.
Bob Simon (01:43):
So her red Converse, which we see in the courtrooms, and they're very famous. And I'm glad you wore those because the first whiskey I selected for you is none other than Redbreast.
Maryann Gallagher (01:43):
Oh, I love it.
Bob Simon (01:57):
This is a Redbreast 15. This is an Irish whiskey. I think it's triple distilled-
Maryann Gallagher (02:01):
Oh, two points.
Bob Simon (02:02):
... as your husband Blake knows. So this is an Irish whiskey, so this is going to definitely be a different taste than maybe some of the other ones. And then we'll start telling the story of you, going all the way back to Eastern Pennsylvania, okay?
Mauro Fiore (02:15):
Maryann, how many pairs of Converse do you own?
Maryann Gallagher (02:19):
I have the OG, the ones that I wore when I had my dress, and I got my trial lawyer of a year, that's in a box. And then I have four or five. I have, when they get dirty, and I have my outside ones. I have my go to court ones, but I never wear my Chucks inside the courtroom or inside church. Those are the two places-
Bob Simon (02:19):
Really?
Maryann Gallagher (02:32):
... I take them off. I put shoes on, yeah.
Bob Simon (02:34):
Well, cheers. We'll do the first one, then we'll hear the story because-
Maryann Gallagher (02:36):
Cheers.
Bob Simon (02:36):
... I want to get right into that.
Maryann Gallagher (02:37):
Cheers. It's so good to see you guys. ..., it's hot but it's good.
Bob Simon (02:48):
..., definitely different from the stuff-
Maryann Gallagher (02:48):
It's good.
Bob Simon (02:49):
... we usually drink.
Mauro Fiore (02:49):
Different from the American stuff, that's for sure.
Bob Simon (02:52):
Yeah.
Mauro Fiore (02:52):
But it's good. I like it.
Maryann Gallagher (02:53):
Do I smell it first?
Bob Simon (02:54):
A lot of people swear by this whiskey.
Maryann Gallagher (02:56):
I like it.
Bob Simon (02:56):
Yeah, the Irish side of my family really likes this one-
Mauro Fiore (02:57):
Redbreast.
Bob Simon (02:59):
... but they couldn't afford it. So-
Maryann Gallagher (02:59):
It smells like my grandpa.
Bob Simon (02:59):
Yeah.
Maryann Gallagher (03:03):
It tastes like my grandpa.
Bob Simon (03:05):
Spirits are supposed to bring out stories, and smells, and remind you of things. So tell us about first, of where you grew up, because everybody assumes that you're so successful now, that you must have always had this success, and been like this when you grew up.
Maryann Gallagher (03:19):
I wish. No, I grew up 107, the middle kid, five boys, two girls in Philadelphia, and my dad worked three jobs. Put us through... We lived on food stamps, but my parents put us all through Catholic school. Uniforms, all that stuff, Catholic high school, so that was my goal when I had kids. I wanted them all to go to Catholic school because I think it was a good race for me. So I always wanted, from the time I was 12, I wanted to be a lawyer, but-
Bob Simon (03:19):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (03:45):
... my family couldn't afford to send me to school. My dad's like, "I can't send anyone to college. If you want to go to college, you're on your own." So I just started working. I started actually working for a judge when I was in... I was 16 before it was, I think, it was legal to work. I just did parking tickets. I worked at his office. I just wanted to learn about the law, from that time-
Bob Simon (04:03):
Well, you should know whether it's legal to work. I mean, you do employment work.
Maryann Gallagher (04:06):
I didn't know back then.
Mauro Fiore (04:07):
Incidentally, I went to Catholic school myself, and look how I turned out.
Maryann Gallagher (04:11):
Look, you're a good boy.
Mauro Fiore (04:13):
Yeah, see.
Bob Simon (04:13):
Both my parents went to Catholic school, and they say that's the reason why we didn't go to Catholic school.
Maryann Gallagher (04:16):
Really?
Bob Simon (04:18):
If you look at our website, you look up my dad's profile, he actually talks about getting beat by the nuns. I mean, tongue in cheek.
Maryann Gallagher (04:25):
I was a good girl, though.
Bob Simon (04:25):
Oh, my dad is great.
Maryann Gallagher (04:25):
Mm-hmm.
Bob Simon (04:25):
My mom went to North Catholic in Pittsburgh. My dad went to Camanan Catholic.
Maryann Gallagher (04:30):
Oh, wow.
Bob Simon (04:30):
So yeah. But yeah, so I mean Irish family?
Maryann Gallagher (04:33):
Irish family. Well, my mom's Polish, so they had the story of the coal miner. She was from Coalport, where the poor Polish women would pick up the Irish dudes, and that's what happened to my family.
Bob Simon (04:45):
And that's where... Ours is similar, too. So Pittsburgh, same thing. Very heavy Polish and Irish population. It's very the same. So we were talking before we went on camera about candy bars, because we were talking about Willy Wonka and some stuff, but Hershey, PA?
Maryann Gallagher (04:45):
Hershey, PA.
Mauro Fiore (04:45):
Hershey, Pennsylvania.
Maryann Gallagher (05:00):
Hershey, Pennsylvania, smells like a Hershey bar. If you can imagine driving into a place, and the whole place smells like chocolate. It's amazing. It's really fun.
Bob Simon (05:08):
Yeah, we used to play our state championships there, in Pennsylvania, Hershey. It was always the goal to get to Hershey.
Mauro Fiore (05:13):
That's where you're from, Hershey?
Maryann Gallagher (05:14):
I'm from Philly.
Bob Simon (05:14):
Outside of Philly.
Mauro Fiore (05:15):
Oh, Philly?
Maryann Gallagher (05:15):
But Hershey isn't too far.
Bob Simon (05:17):
We have another place outside of Pittsburgh called Mars. They just named shit after candy, and it was like [inaudible 00:05:21]?
Maryann Gallagher (05:21):
Yeah, well that was [inaudible 00:05:21].
Mauro Fiore (05:21):
Have you ever been Gilroy, up in Central California, where they grow all the garlic. If you drive through the town, the whole town smells like garlic. This is where they grow it.
Maryann Gallagher (05:21):
Oh, wow?
Bob Simon (05:29):
I bet you they don't have vampires there.
Mauro Fiore (05:30):
No, probably not.
Bob Simon (05:34):
Yeah, so growing up 107, when did you come out to... How did you get to California?
Maryann Gallagher (05:39):
Well, that's a crazy story. I never planned on being here. I never planned on being in California. I never planned on being a civil litigator. My plan was to be a federal prosecutor. So through law school, I worked for a federal judge, who I loved. It was federal court. He was one of the only African-American judges there, in Philadelphia, at the time. And I loved him. So for three years, during the day, I worked as a clerk. Went to law school, and on the weekends, I would waitress like 40 hours, from Friday at 4:00, all night until 2:00 in the morning. Saturday, double shift, Sunday, double shift, and then go back, and go to law school, and do my clerkship.
Bob Simon (06:13):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (06:13):
So I love-
Mauro Fiore (06:14):
Where did you go to law school?
Maryann Gallagher (06:14):
Temple. Temple, in the heart of Philly, like in the streets.
Bob Simon (06:18):
Yeah.
Maryann Gallagher (06:18):
It was fun. So that's what I wanted. I said, "I'm going to be a federal prosecutor." So he said, "You'll do a clerkship with me, for the first two years, and then go into the federal prosecutors." So I did a clerkship with a federal prosecutor, clerkship with a federal public defender. Temple was great like getting you out there, and working, when I was in law school. So third year, he promised me, he said, "Okay, you're going to start in September," but the guy in front of me got his girlfriend pregnant, and nobody knew this, but there's a clause in a clerkship. They're usually two years, but there's an option that you can say, "I want to stay for a third year."
(06:50):
So January of my senior year, third year, this guy's like, "I'm going to exercise my option." So the judge came to me and he goes, "I don't know what to tell you, this guy exercised his option. I can't say no, so you can't start for another year." I'm like, 'Shit, what am I going to do?" I can't work, because I can't go to a law firm, and say, "Hey, I'm leaving in a year." So my best friend, I have four best friends, they're still my four best friends. Like people from back east, they're lifelong friends. My friend, Woofie, from preschool, is still my best friend.
Bob Simon (07:15):
Real name Woofie?
Maryann Gallagher (07:16):
That's my name for her. She used to look like Wolfman Jack. Poor kid. When she was in high school, that's what [inaudible 00:07:22]
Mauro Fiore (07:22):
She doesn't sound that pretty?
Maryann Gallagher (07:23):
She's beautiful. I think she looks like Adrienne Barbeau, but the guys... She was kind of hairy back then, so they called her Wolfman Jack, but she's beautiful. So anyway, so the four of us have always, always... I talk to them every day. So Karen's out here, one of them, and none of them went to college. None of them had the chance to. So I said, "I had a chance to go to college. I had a chance to go to law school. I'm going to come out to California, and I'm going to work, and Karen, you just go... She wanted to be an actor/waitress. It was a really tough time.
(07:50):
So I came out, I said, "I have a year. I'll just come and work at temp jobs, and I'll pay for it. And then you go, and go on auditions, and if you make it, take me to the Academy Awards, and if you don't make it, then we'll both come home in a year." So I came out here with 500 bucks in my pocket. That was gone in like the first week, when we paid rent. So I went to AppleOne, and I did take the bar before I came out here, and I passed the bar-
Bob Simon (08:11):
Oh, wow.
Maryann Gallagher (08:11):
... in Pennsylvania so-
Bob Simon (08:13):
Are you still licensed in Pennsylvania?
Maryann Gallagher (08:14):
No, it lapsed because I never got to do all the stuff. So I came out here, I called the bar, when I got here. I'm like, "Hey, I'm an attorney in Pennsylvania," and they're like, "How long have you been an attorney?" I'm like, "One week." I'm like, "Can I take the attorney bar?" They're like, "No," and, "You have to pay the attorney price, and take the full bar." I'm like, "That sucks." So I had to do it all over again, out in California. But I wasn't planning on becoming an attorney. I just wanted to find out what could I do.
Bob Simon (08:37):
But what were your aspirations, at that time, going back-
Maryann Gallagher (08:39):
To go back to Philly, and be a federal prosecutor. That's what I wanted to do.
Bob Simon (08:42):
A federal prosecutor but-
Maryann Gallagher (08:43):
So I was just here to work for a year, and then go back.
Bob Simon (08:46):
But when you wanted to be a federal prosecutor, did you think that's where it was going to end and stop with you? I mean, what were your aspirations, from the time you were 12, up to this point?
Mauro Fiore (08:52):
She just wanted to put away bad guys.
Maryann Gallagher (08:55):
My always goal was to be a mom and a lawyer. So I figured I'll be a prosecutor for a while, then I'll be a mom full-time, like that was my plan, and-
Bob Simon (09:03):
Wow, how things change.
Maryann Gallagher (09:05):
How things change.
Bob Simon (09:05):
You ended up doing everything, at the same time.
Maryann Gallagher (09:09):
Yeah. So I started working at AppleOne. So I'm going to all these temping [inaudible 00:09:12]. I'm taking a bus. I'm working at... I worked at Warner Brothers, as a receptionist, for one week. Mel Blanc came in, and I had this long skirt on, and I was answering the phone, and I saw Mel Blanc. I went to stand up, and I fell flat on the floor. I'm like, "Hi, Mr. Blanc." That was how I met... That was my first brush with celebrity, and my only brush [inaudible 00:09:30].
Bob Simon (09:32):
He probably worked you into a few movies, now that I think about it.
Maryann Gallagher (09:33):
Maybe, but-
Mauro Fiore (09:33):
Did he do his Porky Pig voice?
Maryann Gallagher (09:34):
No, I think we shocked him. He goes, "What the hell's going on with this girl?" So my mom's like, "You're working at all these places. You should be working at law firms." So that's how I ended up getting to Hurley, Grassini & Wrinkle, which is where I ended up-
Bob Simon (09:34):
Oh, I didn't know you were there.
Maryann Gallagher (09:48):
... doing PI. So they were two blocks from my house, so I didn't have to take the bus. I started as the secretary. I was answering the phones, and I was there for two weeks. And at the end of two weeks, somebody at the firm liked me, and said, "Let's hire this girl, as a secretary. She's great."
Mauro Fiore (10:00):
Did they know you were a lawyer?
Maryann Gallagher (10:01):
No, nobody knew us. I didn't tell anybody I was a lawyer because I was kind of embarrassed. I'm like, "I'm only here..." People are going to say, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "I'm just trying to make money."
Bob Simon (10:08):
Now, at this point, have you had plans, or did you take the California bar yet?
Maryann Gallagher (10:12):
No, I was still going back to Philly-
Bob Simon (10:12):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (10:13):
... that was my plan. So they came out, and they're like... It was Hurley, and he's this big dude from Pittsburgh, and he's like, "Are you a member of some bar?" I'm like, "Shit, where was I last night?" because he didn't know I was a lawyer, so I thought he saw me out drinking. I'm like, "I'm sorry, sir. What do you mean?" And he's like, "Are you a lawyer?" and I'm like, "I am a lawyer in Pennsylvania." I told him the whole story, and he goes, "Would you like to be a law clerk?" I'm like, "Yeah, sure." I said, "I'm only staying for a year." He's like, "That's fine." So they took me in the back, and they asked me a bunch of questions. And then, I don't know if we should say this on video, but they gave me a motion for summary judgment on a sexual harassment case, which is Boone v. AT&T, which turns out to be this huge published case, but they didn't want to touch it so, "Give it to the new girl."
(10:53):
So I'm in the law library doing research, and Grassini, the other trial partner, walks by, and he goes, "What the hell is a secretary in the law library doing research?" and Hurley's like, "Don't worry, she's fine." So they let me... I did this opt to this MSJ. I did all kinds of legal work and we won. So it came from another attorney. They were doing it as a favor. These guys are like all fathers. They all have like five kids. They're wonderful. They didn't want to touch sexual harassment. This is like 30 years ago, so they're like, "Okay, now what are we going to do? We have to try this case." So Grassini's like, "I can't try this case without Maryann, because she knows everything," and he didn't really know about it. He didn't want to know about it. So they asked me to take the-
Bob Simon (11:30):
That's crazy. I didn't know this story, at all.
Maryann Gallagher (11:31):
So they asked me to take the bar, in California. I'm like, "Yeah, sure." So I don't know, I said, "Yeah, I'll take the bar."
Bob Simon (11:36):
So you're taking the bar, to try this case-
Maryann Gallagher (11:36):
So I could try a case.
Bob Simon (11:38):
... that ends up being the benchmark for-
Maryann Gallagher (11:40):
Sexual harassment cases, yeah.
Bob Simon (11:41):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (11:41):
I had no idea.
Bob Simon (11:42):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (11:42):
So I took the bar, and I passed. But then, they were like my mom and dad, so Grassini-
Mauro Fiore (11:48):
What year was this? Give us a-
Maryann Gallagher (11:49):
This was 1990. I think it was 1989 or 1990.
Bob Simon (11:49):
Wow.
Mauro Fiore (11:53):
Wow.
Bob Simon (11:53):
We'll finish this because the perfect choice was-
Maryann Gallagher (11:54):
Finish this, okay?
Bob Simon (11:56):
... because now we're getting into the second pour, which is actually Benchmark. This is Benchmark Full Proof, which is... This is-
Maryann Gallagher (12:05):
This is Grandpa. Thanks Grandpa.
Bob Simon (12:07):
Yeah, you better not thank Grandpa for this because it's 125 proof.
Maryann Gallagher (12:10):
Oh, my God.
Bob Simon (12:12):
Yeah.
Mauro Fiore (12:12):
Oof. I'm ready.
Bob Simon (12:14):
Well, you know why they... I mean, they say once you pass the bar, why they call it passing the bar, right?
Maryann Gallagher (12:17):
I passed two, do I get a double shot?
Bob Simon (12:20):
Yeah, you get a double shot.
Maryann Gallagher (12:22):
No, I shouldn't do that on a 120-
Bob Simon (12:22):
Well, they say it just really because you get to walk across that little-
Maryann Gallagher (12:24):
Yeah-
Bob Simon (12:24):
... bar.
Maryann Gallagher (12:25):
... it's the most important thing.
Bob Simon (12:26):
You can work in an alcohol [inaudible 00:12:29].
Mauro Fiore (12:28):
There's a country song that says, "You'll never be a lawyer, but you can't pass the bar," and it's about-
Maryann Gallagher (12:32):
No-
Mauro Fiore (12:32):
... a guy who's a drunk.
Maryann Gallagher (12:34):
... that's why they wanted me to take the case, so I could pass the bar, and sit with Grassini and [inaudible 00:12:38].
Mauro Fiore (12:38):
Maybe we should make that our theme song.
Bob Simon (12:39):
I know, we should probably play that song, when you say that because...
Maryann Gallagher (12:42):
All right, cheers guys.
Bob Simon (12:43):
All right, now we're on to the-
Maryann Gallagher (12:43):
Now, we're on to-
Bob Simon (12:43):
... the legal career.
Maryann Gallagher (12:45):
... the legal career.
Bob Simon (12:47):
The real legal career like the legal, legal career. Not like a sixteen-year-old doing illegal jobs in Pennsylvania.
Maryann Gallagher (12:53):
So we tried Boone v. AT&T. That was the fight. "Should we let her sit with us at the table?" because there was a woman attorney on the other side, and Grassini was afraid that if he beat up on a woman, in front of a jury, that wouldn't look good. So he's like, "Let me bring Maryann in, and put her next to me, but she can't talk like I don't want her to say anything." Not because I was stupid, but just because he's the trial lawyer. I'm like, "That's fine."
Bob Simon (13:15):
So at this point, are you in your late '20s?
Maryann Gallagher (13:17):
Yeah, I was 27.
Bob Simon (13:18):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (13:18):
Just 27, so-
Bob Simon (13:19):
And for those of you that are watching, or listening, whatever media you're on, Larry Grassini is also one of the greatest trial lawyers.
Maryann Gallagher (13:26):
Twice, he won trial lawyer of the year. Twice.
Bob Simon (13:27):
Yeah. One of the rare ones.
Maryann Gallagher (13:27):
Yeah, and a wonderful man.
Mauro Fiore (13:28):
He was calapresident, too.
Maryann Gallagher (13:30):
He was calapresident, too. He's an amazing father of five kids. He and Roland were my role models, like two men made me the attorney that I am, but that's okay.
Bob Simon (13:39):
Because Lars Johnson was there for a while, too.
Maryann Gallagher (13:41):
Lars was there a while, after I left. He was their [inaudible 00:13:43].
Bob Simon (13:42):
Yeah, I liked Lars a lot, but now he's a full-time meteor. Okay, so you're fresh off passing the bar, in California, you escalated from being the-
Maryann Gallagher (13:51):
Secretary.
Bob Simon (13:52):
... secretary to law clerk, to now-
Maryann Gallagher (13:54):
Second chair.
Bob Simon (13:54):
... try this case. Second chair, not supposed to talk or say a word. So what happens?
Maryann Gallagher (13:59):
But I did all the stuff, like I would come in every day with a folder, of what to cross-examine everybody on. So we told the jury... He wanted to tell the jury, because again, "Why is this girl sitting here at the table," which is very... It's holy ground, "If she's not a lawyer. If she hasn't passed the bar." So we had to get permission from the judge, to let me sit there. And I said, "I passed the bar, but I haven't been sworn in yet," because Lars didn't want me to get sworn in because he wanted to be able to say I was a law clerk, but I'm not an attorney yet.
Bob Simon (14:23):
Oh.
Maryann Gallagher (14:23):
So we tried the case. At the end of the case, we went to upstairs to his friend, Judge Diane Wayne, and she swore me in. So I got sworn in, after we passed the-
Bob Simon (14:31):
How long was this trial?
Maryann Gallagher (14:32):
It was two weeks.
Mauro Fiore (14:34):
Strange how he didn't want them to know you were a lawyer?
Maryann Gallagher (14:38):
It was... Like he's very brilliant, as far as everything is about how the jury perceives you. So they didn't want a jury to say, "Why is this female-
Mauro Fiore (14:38):
Why is this-
Maryann Gallagher (14:46):
... lawyer sitting next to this guy, trying a sexual harassment case, and he's not letting her speak."
Mauro Fiore (14:50):
Aww, interesting.
Maryann Gallagher (14:50):
So I was a law clerk, assisting him, but I wasn't able to [inaudible 00:14:54]
Bob Simon (14:54):
So were you... Were the red Chucks involved yet?
Maryann Gallagher (14:57):
No, the red Chucks weren't involved.
Bob Simon (14:58):
Wow. So when did the red-
Maryann Gallagher (14:59):
It was just me. I was still planning on going back to Philly, at that time. I'm like, "I'll try this case. I'll have fun." I had fun, and I was going to go back, but after I tried it, I loved it. That got me into harassment, and sexual harassment cases. It just really did. So that's what lighted the spark in me, because the law changes every day, and it's so much fun to learn all these different laws and stuff.
Bob Simon (15:00):
But at their firm, at that point, had they ever-
Maryann Gallagher (15:00):
No-
Bob Simon (15:19):
... tried a case like this?
Maryann Gallagher (15:22):
... never tried. Didn't want to touch it. Didn't want to have anything to do with it, and even when the trial was done, I've never wanted to touch another sexual harassment. So I did PI trials for 10 years. We did catastrophic injuries. We got huge verdicts for people. But I would go with Blake, I'd be in the movies, and I'm crying because my client's a quadriplegic in a chair, and he can't go to a movie. I'm like, "This is unfair." It was really hard on me, so I decided I wanted to go back into employment. So I went out on my own, and that's when I started my own place, and-
Bob Simon (15:50):
How long after you passed the bar, you went out on your own?
Maryann Gallagher (15:53):
10 years.
Bob Simon (15:53):
10 years?
Maryann Gallagher (15:54):
Ten years of trying cases with Grassini.
Bob Simon (15:54):
So now, you're in your, probably-
Maryann Gallagher (15:54):
'30s?
Bob Simon (15:54):
Mid, late '30s.
Maryann Gallagher (16:01):
I got married. I was 34 when we got married, then I went on my own, after I got married.
Mauro Fiore (16:03):
You met Blake, your husband, who's offset-
Maryann Gallagher (16:03):
I met Blake-
Mauro Fiore (16:03):
You met him here in LA?
Maryann Gallagher (16:04):
... in the elevator at my building.
Mauro Fiore (16:07):
Oh.
Maryann Gallagher (16:07):
So on Friday nights, Roland Wrinkle, who's the genius brain, would bring us all lawyers in, and torture us at five o'clock on Friday, and start going over cases. I mean, what a... That was what he did to us. But we had the balcony, and on Friday night, at five o'clock, across the way, was Blake, who was on the mortgage side, partying, and firing up the margaritas. So we're all sitting there being tortured, listening to law, and Blake's over there partying. I'm like, "I want to be over there." So we met in the elevator-
Bob Simon (16:31):
Was he scantily clad like-
Maryann Gallagher (16:33):
..., they were all drunk and crazy, having a great time. But we met in the elevator, and I did not want to have anything to do with them, because I thought mortgage brokers, he just wants to sell me a house. That's what he wants to do. So I would say no to him, for years and years. Then, all the girls in his office, decided to get him... And he took me on this date, he never told me this story until after we got married. He took me to Starbucks, and he got me tea, because he said, "How about if we go out for coffee?" And I said, "I don't drink coffee, and I just closed the door, and went into my office, because I didn't think anything of it. I was just like, "I don't drink coffee."
(17:02):
So then, he calls me on the phone, "How about tea?" because all the girls are telling him what to say. So he takes me to Starbucks, and he brings out the leather satchel, with tea bags, and he's like, "Just get some hot water." I'm like, "Okay, that's really cool." But then, he starts asking me all these questions about my family, and I thought he was doing a loan application-
Mauro Fiore (17:18):
Oh, my God.
Maryann Gallagher (17:18):
... so I'm answering these questions.
Bob Simon (17:21):
Well, he was. I mean, let's be honest. He was qualifying you because he wanted to see your credit score.
Maryann Gallagher (17:25):
So that's what I thought it was. I thought it was like a loan application coffee. So then he goes, "Why don't we go to dinner?" So we go to dinner, and that was great, and then we ended up falling love and everything. But he didn't tell me, until after we were engaged, that the Starbucks was a screener date, and if he didn't like me, he was going to not spend money on dinner. I'm like, "You motherfucker. I never would have married you."
Bob Simon (17:44):
Where did he-
Mauro Fiore (17:44):
And he got away with the hot water. I mean, real cheap.
Maryann Gallagher (17:46):
I know. Isn't that crazy?
Bob Simon (17:47):
Wow, big spender over there.
Maryann Gallagher (17:49):
I don't know if the girls... He probably planned that part, knowing him, and the girls probably weren't on board with it. But then they were like, "Send her roses," and they kind of incorporated behind him, and then Grassini and Roland got in, on my side. And then when he asked me to marry me, when I came in the next morning, there's big banner, "Congratulations on your engagement," and this big [inaudible 00:18:08]. I'm like, "What if I said no?"
Bob Simon (18:08):
Oh, my God.
Maryann Gallagher (18:10):
That's so funny.
Bob Simon (18:11):
But you're at this point now, so I mean you're probably what, how many, almost 10 years in-
Maryann Gallagher (18:16):
10 years in. I was nominated trial lawyer of the year. The year we got engaged, and I took him to the gala thing. I didn't know, I was... I don't know. And they're like, "Well, who's this dude? What are you bringing him here for?" "I'm like, "He's my fiance." They're like, "You don't bring people to this thing." That was when they were doing the... You had to do your speeches and-
Bob Simon (18:16):
Oh, yeah.
Maryann Gallagher (18:33):
... on that day... I was getting married that Saturday, that was Thursday. My gown had come back from the dry cleaners, and I opened it up, and it was black. The whole train of my gown was black, because they closed up my gown, and it got moldy during the time it was. So before I go to get my first nomination for trial lawyer of the year, my wedding gown is black. We're crying, at my house. So I'm out in the hallway, while they're doing everybody else's speeches. I'm talking to the dry cleaner, I'm like, "You better get my gown done." This is Thursday, my wedding dress by Saturday-
Bob Simon (19:01):
How many times were you nominated for trial lawyer of the year, before you won?
Maryann Gallagher (19:01):
Six.
Bob Simon (19:01):
Six times?
Maryann Gallagher (19:04):
Six times.
Mauro Fiore (19:05):
Wow.
Bob Simon (19:06):
You know that, on her sixth time, who she was up against for trial lawyer of the year?
Mauro Fiore (19:09):
Hmm, Rowley?
Maryann Gallagher (19:10):
Yup.
Bob Simon (19:11):
Yup. And me. And me.
Mauro Fiore (19:12):
And Bob.
Bob Simon (19:13):
And there's two other ones. I think Rahul Ravipudi might've been that year, too. Yeah, she crushed, I think, two or three big employment verdicts, like important cases that year. And then, the Chucks in and out of the courtroom, but never in the courtroom, or church-
Maryann Gallagher (19:25):
Right.
Bob Simon (19:25):
... so we've learned. But now you're 10 years out, and I know at one point, you said you wanted to have this full-time job being a mom.
Mauro Fiore (19:32):
Did you pour the Benchmark or... Like I thought I drank. I didn't see you pour it. Oh, you poured it?
Bob Simon (19:38):
I'm like a magician, dude.
Maryann Gallagher (19:39):
Whoa.
Mauro Fiore (19:40):
How many drinks have you had?
Maryann Gallagher (19:41):
Sorry.
Mauro Fiore (19:43):
Because I thought I had drank my Redbreast and that's why-
Bob Simon (19:46):
No, you did drink your Redbreast, and I poured the Benchmark.
Mauro Fiore (19:48):
And this is the 125-
Bob Simon (19:48):
125.
Mauro Fiore (19:50):
... proof?
Maryann Gallagher (19:50):
That was good.
Bob Simon (19:50):
Straight from Kentucky.
Maryann Gallagher (19:52):
All right, give me another hit so I can click.
Bob Simon (19:54):
You want another one?
Maryann Gallagher (19:54):
Uh-huh.
Bob Simon (19:54):
Oh shit, I like this [inaudible 00:19:57].
Maryann Gallagher (19:57):
Before we go into my next phase.
Bob Simon (19:59):
This is good because for how hot proof this is, it's good.
Mauro Fiore (20:03):
Actually, for as high proof it is, it's smooth.
Bob Simon (20:05):
Yeah.
Maryann Gallagher (20:06):
Can I ask how did the bromance begin between you two?
Bob Simon (20:09):
We met in a hot tub in Vegas.
Mauro Fiore (20:10):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (20:11):
That's actually true.
Maryann Gallagher (20:12):
I believe it.
Mauro Fiore (20:13):
Yeah, and Bob loved my hairy chest and-
Maryann Gallagher (20:16):
I love you guys.
Mauro Fiore (20:17):
It's what happened?
Bob Simon (20:17):
No, he's hairless like a seal.
Mauro Fiore (20:19):
Yeah, I am.
Maryann Gallagher (20:19):
Are you really?
Mauro Fiore (20:20):
Yeah. My mom's-
Maryann Gallagher (20:20):
Which lawyer is going to ask you to prove it?
Mauro Fiore (20:21):
My mom's hairless and-
Maryann Gallagher (20:24):
Not even on your back?
Mauro Fiore (20:25):
No hair anywhere.
Maryann Gallagher (20:26):
Do you have hair on your back?
Bob Simon (20:27):
No. No, I don't think so?
Maryann Gallagher (20:28):
Oh, you're lucky. That's a curse.
Bob Simon (20:30):
I had my three little girls looking for weird hairs, now that I'm almost in my mid-forties. They're doing checks. But yeah, we want to thank our alcohol sponsor today, the Booze Outlet. He sources the weird stuff that we want to find like Benchmark. My next one, that they brought us, is Angel's Envy Rye. So Booze Outlet, they can find, and they can deliver anything you want. They're opening, up their own speakeasy shop, in the near future, in SoCal, and we're excited for that.
Maryann Gallagher (20:53):
Let's do a click, before we move on.
Bob Simon (20:54):
Click, click, click.
Maryann Gallagher (20:54):
Cheers. Cheers, Mauro.
Mauro Fiore (20:55):
Cheers.
Bob Simon (20:55):
To the first 10 years of practice for Maryann.
Maryann Gallagher (20:59):
Yeah. We made it.
Bob Simon (21:02):
Mm-hmm. First of six tries. It's almost like the Sally Field, always running around [inaudible 00:21:07].
Maryann Gallagher (21:06):
Yes, Susan Lucci. I was the Susan Lucci.
Bob Simon (21:08):
Susan Lucci. That's what it was. What else have you got?
Mauro Fiore (21:10):
Six nominations.
Bob Simon (21:12):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (21:12):
It's fun. I had fun, every time.
Mauro Fiore (21:14):
I only had five. I only had five.
Maryann Gallagher (21:14):
How many do you have?
Bob Simon (21:18):
Three. I think I'm three.
Maryann Gallagher (21:19):
You guys need more.
Bob Simon (21:22):
But so you always wanted to be a full-time mom, at some point?
Maryann Gallagher (21:23):
Mm-hmm.
Bob Simon (21:25):
So how did that balance work, because I know you teach a lot of... And I read the article that you had out, of how you're teaching women, how they can have everything at the same time, and not be worried about being perfect and everything. I wanted to attach that. I wanted to do this part of the show for production. I'd love to be able to show parts of that article, because it's very powerful for people to be able to understand women coming up, how they can actually do things. So how did you balance that?
Maryann Gallagher (21:51):
That's so important because, well, first, I had Blake, who's wonderful. You have to give up control. For us, for a woman, or for lawyers, you have to control everything. Everything has to be perfect. That goes out the window when you have kids.
Bob Simon (22:04):
Yeah.
Maryann Gallagher (22:04):
It's chaos. You can't control everything, but that's the beauty of it. You learn... That's what I love about it, you don't know. There were days, like I said, I would cry when I went to court, because it was always three o'clock in the morning, they get the fevers, always. 102. I had to leave.
Bob Simon (22:19):
This literally was my life, this morning.
Maryann Gallagher (22:21):
Yeah, oh-
Bob Simon (22:21):
My youngest was 3:00 am. I got up with her.
Maryann Gallagher (22:23):
Is she okay?
Bob Simon (22:24):
She's fine, but it's the same.
Maryann Gallagher (22:25):
It's crazy.
Mauro Fiore (22:26):
My wife always says they're fine. I'm on the other end of the spectrum. If they have a cough, or a runny nose, I'm a panicker. I'm like, "Maybe we should take them to the doctor." She's like, "Are you... What's wrong with you? They're fine."
Maryann Gallagher (22:26):
She has to drive them.
Mauro Fiore (22:40):
I said, "Are you sure they're fine?" I mean, "It seems like they're sick." She says... According to my wife, they're always fine.
Maryann Gallagher (22:40):
That's good.
Mauro Fiore (22:45):
I have a five-year-old and a four-year-old. They're always fine.
Maryann Gallagher (22:48):
And how old are yours?
Mauro Fiore (22:49):
Same. Six, three and one, but they're all friends. So we travel together.
Maryann Gallagher (22:52):
That's so great. Do you have girls or boys?
Mauro Fiore (22:54):
I have a 20-year-old girl, and a 5-year-old son. And my daughter, Samantha, will be four next month, so she's 3 3/4.
Maryann Gallagher (23:04):
Oh, girls love-
Bob Simon (23:05):
They're awesome.
Maryann Gallagher (23:05):
... their daddies-
Mauro Fiore (23:05):
They do.
Maryann Gallagher (23:06):
And boys love their mommies. I had three boys, so that's why I know that.
Bob Simon (23:09):
So we're going to get to that story now because you had, I think, your first, at 37, 39, 41, so two years apart. And I know, the world now, is a lot different than it was when you were having children. Would you agree with that?
Maryann Gallagher (23:22):
Oh, yeah.
Bob Simon (23:23):
It's especially a lot different for women.
Maryann Gallagher (23:25):
Uh-huh. It's a lot more open and giving. The space and the time [inaudible 00:23:29].
Bob Simon (23:28):
But back then, I mean, can you share with people, I know that there was very... When you were, I think, about to pick a jury, and you were pregnant with your third child, can you just share with us what happened, and then how you got through it?
Maryann Gallagher (23:43):
Yeah, I had a miscarriage. I was ready to go to Van Nuys to pick a jury, and I woke up, and there was just blood everywhere, and I was just, "This is... I knew. It was horrible. So I called... Unfortunately, Blake wasn't there, so our next door neighbor came over. My little kids were... I slept in the garage because I was in trial, so I had to be... When you're in trial, I had to separate myself from my kids, physically, because otherwise they'd be with me all night. So Blake-
Bob Simon (24:06):
They're probably three and one, at this point?
Maryann Gallagher (24:08):
Yeah. Yeah. So woke up, I had the miscarriage. It was horrible. I knew the baby was gone, but I had to go to the doctors anyway, and I think one of the hardest things was walking in the office, with all the pregnant women so happy, and I was trying not to cry, because I didn't want to be kill their joy, but I just burst out in tears. And I went in, and they did the ultrasound, and the office called... This was when I was with Larry, and it was like this old lady that broke her arm, in a crosswalk, and we were arguing about the stop signs at Rouse, and she wasn't the nicest lady. So Larry called, and the men, and this is not a slam on them, that's what they do. They decided, okay, two weeks is good. Nobody talked to me.
Bob Simon (24:46):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (24:47):
They're like, "Two weeks continuance will be fine." So Larry called and he goes, "Okay, you're going to be back in two weeks." And I said, "I just need some time. I want to be with my kids. I just want to spend some time." And the lady said to Larry, "Well, if she's not ready, then you're going to try the case," and Larry's like, "I'm not trying... She's just nasty. Nobody wanted her. "Oh, my God. Oh, my God." So all I did was... There was no one to talk to back then. I didn't know anyone else that had a miscarriage. So I said if I just get out of the house and walk, and just take a few steps, and go to the front lawn, and I did that. And then I said, if I just walk around the block, and every day I would just walk a little bit more, and I cried, because I didn't want to cry in front of my kids. I didn't want them to know what happened.
(25:22):
So I took all my grief outside. I took everything outside, just walked it off, walked it off, walked it off. And then, I knew I had this goal of two weeks, I had to go back in, and I did it. Part of it was good because after that, I just said, "I have this time." And I did say to God, I said, "I know this baby wasn't ready, and that's why you took him. You wouldn't have done it if he wasn't ready. So he's with you, I trust you." And once I gave that back, the control back to God, because I don't have any control over that, then I was like, "Okay, let me move on, and see where I need to go." And I got a $1.8 million verdict, for a 90-year-old lady, and I got her like $50,000 in loss of earnings. It was crazy, but I was a mad person when I went to trial. I think I took my anger out in trial.
Bob Simon (26:06):
And that money in Van Nuys, specifically, even in today's dollars is probably 15 million, if you put it in perspective. But yeah, I mean that's a lot of people don't realize the human aspect of a trial lawyer, what you were going through, at the time. So you didn't have this big support system, and you're probably in a male, well at that time, certainly male-dominated arena. Who was your support, and how has that changed now?
Maryann Gallagher (26:31):
There really wasn't... Well, Blake was, but there wasn't a woman that I could turn to, which that's why I'm such an advocate of women, because when I came up, there was me, Chris Spagnoli, Amy Salomon, Gretchen, and I think there was five of us-
Bob Simon (26:31):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (26:43):
... and none of them had been mothers, so I didn't really have a mom to talk to, like a mom lawyer to talk to, so I was kind of navigating on my own. That's why I'm so... That's my goal is to... I want women to be mothers. I don't want them to shy away from being a lawyer because they think it's too much. I went through a really, really tough time. I made it, you can make it. You can make it through anything. You're resilient. You are a woman lawyer for a reason, because you're brilliant, and you can kick ass. So I think a lot of women doubt themselves, and they let their doubts get into their mind. I talked to so many women in their '30s, and they're like, "I'm never going to find a guy," and I'm like, "If you have that in your mind, it goes out into the world." I said, "Just be open to meeting somebody, and you don't have to find your husband."
Bob Simon (27:23):
I mean, open like you were open to Blake, slamming the door in his face when he wanted to go to Starbucks to get coffee. That kind of open?
Maryann Gallagher (27:29):
Yeah, that kind of open. You never take your own advice.
Mauro Fiore (27:32):
Yeah-
Bob Simon (27:32):
It's the old Genesis song where-
Mauro Fiore (27:34):
... you're lucky Blake was really interested because you weren't giving him really good signs.
Maryann Gallagher (27:34):
He had a handful.
Mauro Fiore (27:40):
You weren't giving him good signs.
Maryann Gallagher (27:42):
He didn't know what he was getting into. But you guys know, when you have a baby, and you hold that baby in your arms, there's no more love. You feel this pure love, instantly. You don't know where it comes from, but you don't know you could love somebody that much [inaudible 00:27:55].
Bob Simon (27:54):
I mean, you're in a true marriage partnership, where he's in the mortgage industry, and at certain points, you have to... One has to be the head of the household, and do things, and you switch. My wife and I are the same way-
Maryann Gallagher (28:04):
Right.
Bob Simon (28:04):
... depending on where you are. I mean, can you just walk us through, because I know when he's in the financial industry, and the mortgage crisis happens in 2009. I mean, when did you switch hats, to have that conversation of, "This is how we're going to have to do things"?
Maryann Gallagher (28:18):
We call it PIC because husband and wife... You could be anything and be a husband and wife. It can be a man, it could be two men. I think person in charge is the name. Who's going to be the person in charge of this house? So you have to have that conversation. Who's going to be in person in charge of the kids, taking them to school? Who's going to be the person in charge of the money? Have that conversation, and figure it out, and it's going to switch. So he had to be the person in charge of getting them to school. We ironed their uniforms because they went to Catholic school. I used to iron their uniforms until Blake took it over. I'm like, "You have to take this over, too." Three boys, iron the uniforms at night, get their lunches ready. I did all that before I got-
Bob Simon (28:18):
We got to get you a steamer.
Maryann Gallagher (28:51):
I know.
Mauro Fiore (28:54):
Or throw it in the dryer like I do.
Bob Simon (28:55):
Yeah.
Maryann Gallagher (28:55):
That's a good one.
Bob Simon (28:56):
Fabric softener dryer Mauro special.
Maryann Gallagher (28:59):
But you have to be open to having these conversations, and everybody has to be. You both have to be open to saying, "Okay... Again, control, this need to control your lives, really kind of it is a good thing, but it's also a bad thing for people. It holds them down, and you have to let-
Bob Simon (29:14):
Let go.
Maryann Gallagher (29:15):
... go of control. When I had my... When Brennan was born, somebody said to me, the most wonderful words I've ever heard, "You can never have too many hands to hold a baby or to hug them." I'm like, "That's because when you're a mom, you feel like you're failing, if you can't do it all by yourself. If you can't take care of your baby, and other people have to come in and help." So we had a wonderful... Tory came in... Tory, we loved her, she came in like 9:00 to 5:00, and took care of our kids, and I felt guilty because I wasn't there. I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. That was really what I thought I was made to be, in this life. I guess, God said, "No, that's not your deal," but I spent as much time with the kids as I could. And the time that I spent with them, I always tried to make special. I have to tell you, what I tell parents all the time, don't spend thousands of dollars on birthdays, when they're like two or three. They don't remember.
Bob Simon (29:58):
Don't remember, yeah.
Maryann Gallagher (29:59):
So my thing was-
Bob Simon (30:00):
We just went to his, and his son just wanted Chuck E. Cheese. The kids had the best time of their life.
Maryann Gallagher (30:00):
Yeah-
Mauro Fiore (30:00):
Yeah-
Maryann Gallagher (30:04):
... it's crazy.
Mauro Fiore (30:04):
... we were in and out of there-
Maryann Gallagher (30:05):
People spend too much money.
Mauro Fiore (30:06):
... in an hour and a half.
Maryann Gallagher (30:06):
It is crazy, and the kids cry. So I told my kids, from the time they were little, like, "It's your day. From the time you open your eyes, you tell me what we're going to do, and we'll do it."
Mauro Fiore (30:06):
I love that.
Maryann Gallagher (30:14):
So it was breakfast, with ice cream sundaes, and then lunch was ice cream sundaes, and then dinner was In-N-Out, and we would go to the movies, or whatever the... I did whatever they wanted. I'm like, "You tell me what's next," and we do it. And that's how we did their birthdays, for each of them, because I had three. So you want to give one special day to each of them. And those were the best, like the funnest times we ever had. Just having-
Bob Simon (30:34):
Yeah-
Maryann Gallagher (30:35):
[inaudible 00:30:35].
Bob Simon (30:35):
... the core memory times with the kids are by far the most fun.
Maryann Gallagher (30:37):
That's what they'll remember. If things are going smooth in their life, they won't... It's not that they're not going to remember it, they'll have a memory of life was good.
Bob Simon (30:44):
Correct.
Maryann Gallagher (30:44):
If something goes bad, they'll remember that. If you pick them up 100 days, and you miss one, they'll remember the day you missed, but you're like, "I was there a hundred times." It doesn't matter.
Bob Simon (30:53):
It doesn't matter.
Mauro Fiore (30:55):
I heard somebody say that you have to remember that when your kids are older, and maybe you're not around anymore, that you exist as a memory to your kids. Everything you do, exists forever in their mind, as a memory to them, so it's important for them to have those memories.
Maryann Gallagher (31:11):
Absolutely.
Mauro Fiore (31:11):
Like I have great memories with my parents and things, and both my parents are gone, but man, the memories will always be in my head. And that's what you have to remember, to give them those times.
Maryann Gallagher (31:21):
Right, so you're not going to be perfect every day, but if you could do those special days, that's going to be the memories that they have.
Bob Simon (31:27):
Yeah. So we're going to go to our last and final pour, which this is one-
Maryann Gallagher (31:30):
Oh, okay.
Bob Simon (31:30):
... of my personal favorites. Oh, you asked for another pour-
Maryann Gallagher (31:30):
I know I did.
Bob Simon (31:30):
... so you better down that one.
Maryann Gallagher (31:30):
I was too busy talking.
Bob Simon (31:30):
Mmm.
Mauro Fiore (31:39):
Now I have been to this distillery with Bob, in Kentucky.
Bob Simon (31:42):
We have been. We have engraved bottles from Angel's Envy. It's on Whiskey Row, in Louisville.
Maryann Gallagher (31:48):
My sister-in- law lives in Louisville.
Bob Simon (31:48):
Really?
Maryann Gallagher (31:48):
Mm-hmm.
Bob Simon (31:50):
You should visit her more often.
Mauro Fiore (31:51):
This is after we went to the Louisville Slugger factory.
Bob Simon (31:53):
We did.
Maryann Gallagher (31:54):
Did you get bats with your names on them?
Mauro Fiore (31:55):
We did get bats.
Maryann Gallagher (31:56):
Aww, did you... Who's got boys? We took the boys there. They all have the bats-
Bob Simon (31:58):
I have all girls.
Maryann Gallagher (31:58):
... with their names on them.
Bob Simon (31:59):
But my girls have bats.
Mauro Fiore (32:00):
Yeah, I actually... At the time, I think, I was there-
Maryann Gallagher (32:00):
All right, cheers.
Bob Simon (32:00):
Cheers.
Maryann Gallagher (32:00):
Good luck.
Mauro Fiore (32:04):
I didn't have kids. I didn't have any small ones.
Maryann Gallagher (32:05):
So this one's Angel's Envy from Whiskey Row.
Maryann Gallagher (32:07):
Angel's Envy. I like that name, too.
Bob Simon (32:09):
Louisville. Oh, it's very good.
Maryann Gallagher (32:13):
Oh, much smoother. Oh yes, that's a good one.
Mauro Fiore (32:16):
Wow, this is-
Bob Simon (32:16):
This one is a hundred.
Mauro Fiore (32:16):
... kind of sweet.
Bob Simon (32:16):
It's a hundred proof.
Maryann Gallagher (32:17):
This one's kind of like me.
Bob Simon (32:20):
This is-
Mauro Fiore (32:20):
I think you'd like this one.
Bob Simon (32:22):
This is a hundred proof.
Mauro Fiore (32:23):
Finished in the Caribbean rum casks-
Bob Simon (32:24):
It is.
Mauro Fiore (32:25):
... that's why it's got that sweet taste.
Bob Simon (32:26):
But this is a-
Maryann Gallagher (32:26):
That's Grandpa. That's... I don't know. Some crazy dude.
Bob Simon (32:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Maryann Gallagher (32:29):
That's me.
Bob Simon (32:29):
Yeah, this is one I thought they would probably like the most, but this is Angel's Envy they say because it's the angel share, when bottles age, the angels, they say take that part of whiskey as it ages, and they call it-
Mauro Fiore (32:29):
In the barrels.
Bob Simon (32:40):
The barrels.
Mauro Fiore (32:40):
Yeah, the barrels age it.
Maryann Gallagher (32:41):
I love that.
Bob Simon (32:42):
So Angel's Envy. So now, as you are in your... I mean, you try a lot of cases, handle a lot of cases, but you're now in your legacy part, I think, of your career.
Maryann Gallagher (32:52):
Yes, I feel that way.
Bob Simon (32:55):
So what are you... I mean, tell us what your plans are for professionally, and also personally, and what legacy you want for Maryann Gallagher.
Maryann Gallagher (33:01):
Well, everything that drives me is the kids. So my goal was because I worked so hard, and it was tough. I said I want to be able to have a job, that I can put all three kids through school without loans. That was my goal. So that's what I would do. I would settle cases. Everybody do... You guys are doing your little money away for your kids, for their education. You can do the tax-free ones. So I did that, and then I would do annuities for them. So when I settled a case... We told them to go to UC schools, Blake was great at that. So we figured out-
Bob Simon (33:34):
Okay. So I have all my kids go to UC schools.
Maryann Gallagher (33:36):
[inaudible 00:33:36]
Bob Simon (33:36):
I hope that college doesn't exist by the time my kids are in college.
Maryann Gallagher (33:36):
I know. I know.
Mauro Fiore (33:36):
Probably won't.
Maryann Gallagher (33:39):
But UC is amazing. So two of them went to UC, but I would structure my annuities, so that they hit when... I went online, found out when the tuition was due, this is when they were still in high school, and structured the annuities to hit, when they were in their different years, so they would have it. So once I got them all done, that was, "Okay, so now I can start-
Bob Simon (33:40):
Now, it's you.
Maryann Gallagher (33:55):
... thinking about myself but-
Mauro Fiore (33:56):
Any of them lawyers? Any more lawyers?
Maryann Gallagher (33:57):
No. Well then, my oldest goes, "I want to go to law school." I told them, "Do not be a lawyer, if you don't have the passion. Don't be a lawyer because Mom was a lawyer, and you're finished with college, and you're like, 'I want another four years of fun.'" That's not fun. And I said, "You have to love it, because if you don't love it, you'll hate it." It's a crazy life, and there's a lot of stress. You have to learn a lot. So he said, "I want to go to law school." I'm like, "As long as you're doing it just because you... Like, "You're not going to work for me. Don't assume that's what you're going to do. Assume that you're starting out fresh. Is that what you want to do?" He's like, "Yes." So he's a second year law student, but now, I'm just like, "Goddammit. Now, I have to work." Now I've got... He's second year. I have another year with him. Then-
Mauro Fiore (34:38):
Where does he go to law school?
Maryann Gallagher (34:39):
He's at Loyola.
Mauro Fiore (34:40):
Oh, nice.
Maryann Gallagher (34:40):
Then my middle one, who's brilliant, engineer, unbelievably brilliant mind, graduated from UC San Diego. And then he says, "I want to go to... He's working, and he's very smart, so he's like... He's going to Cal Berkeley for a master's, in some type of AI engineering.
Bob Simon (34:56):
Oh, that's perfect.
Maryann Gallagher (34:56):
So I was like, "Fuck. Okay, how long is that?"
Bob Simon (34:58):
These two are going to work together.
Maryann Gallagher (34:59):
So that's like two more years. Then my little one, who's the bad boy, is the... He's Blake, all over, Blake. He's at University of Arizona, party school. That's his life. He went to party, in the fraternity, doing all the bad stuff. So he's starting his second year. So I have two more years with him, and then his best friend, who his best friend is my like Woofie. He's got his best friend since preschool. Best friend's like, "I want to go to law school." So Blake's like, "I want to go to law school." I'm like... So I haven't finished that goal yet. I thought I was, but I'm still working on it, and that's fine.
(35:30):
So I've reached my mom goal, which was, I think to me, the most important one. I think I've been where I want to be, as a lawyer, but it is for me, it is the way that I take care of my kids. That's how I see it. So as long as I can keep on doing that for them, that's fine. And then, eventually, so Blake and I will, who knows if we will ever retire, but it's fun. I look at guys like 70 years old, trying cases. That'll probably be me, just for fun.
Mauro Fiore (35:53):
Well, where do you guys live? In what part of town do you live?
Bob Simon (35:56):
But you do because-
Maryann Gallagher (35:56):
I love it.
Bob Simon (35:56):
... you love it.
Maryann Gallagher (35:56):
I love it.
Bob Simon (35:56):
You do it because you love it. Some people are-
Maryann Gallagher (35:57):
It's my favorite place to be.
Bob Simon (35:58):
Some people try cases because they need to, right, but that's a different thing.
Maryann Gallagher (36:01):
You should never try a case for attorney's fees-
Bob Simon (36:01):
Correct.
Maryann Gallagher (36:04):
... or you should never try a case because you think you'll get... If you believe in your client, that's when you should try a case. The biggest mistake people make is, in our case, in employment cases, "I have to try it for the fees." I'm like, "No. No, that's not the reason to try cases."
Bob Simon (36:18):
When we were trying cases, we had a discussion about this off-camera, about using just the human story, from the people that are around it, and not even calling experts.
Maryann Gallagher (36:26):
I don't... Yeah, I don't believe in experts-
Bob Simon (36:26):
No, I-
Maryann Gallagher (36:27):
... because I think a jury is 12 people, who don't want to hear from some guy who makes $10,000 a year, telling them what to think. They could care less. And then they have an expert. They have an expert, they cancel each other out.
Bob Simon (36:27):
Cancel each other out.
Maryann Gallagher (36:37):
Everybody pays 50, a hundred thousand dollars-
Bob Simon (36:37):
It's crazy.
Maryann Gallagher (36:40):
... on both sides. It's such-
Mauro Fiore (36:41):
That's so amazing too, because I'm friends with Carney Shegerian-
Maryann Gallagher (36:41):
I love Carney.
Mauro Fiore (36:43):
... who's also a marquee employment lawyer-
Maryann Gallagher (36:43):
Yes.
Mauro Fiore (36:47):
... like yourself, who got million verdicts, just like you. And it's been trial over the years, same thing. And Carney is very simple when he tries the cases. Carney says, "I don't need the experts. All I need is someone who got screwed, and I'll tell their story."
Maryann Gallagher (37:01):
That's what I do. That's [inaudible 00:37:02].
Bob Simon (37:02):
That's the way it should be.
Mauro Fiore (37:02):
Carney says, "If they get screwed or not? If they did, I'll tell the story-
Maryann Gallagher (37:05):
That's what I do, too.
Mauro Fiore (37:06):
... and the jury will understand it."
Maryann Gallagher (37:06):
Yes.
Mauro Fiore (37:08):
I was like, "Carney, man. If you're getting those kinds of verdicts, and that's your strategy, man, God bless you," because he goes in, no experts-
Maryann Gallagher (37:14):
I've seen him-
Mauro Fiore (37:15):
... no meds-
Maryann Gallagher (37:16):
He's so [inaudible 00:37:16].
Mauro Fiore (37:16):
... no nothing. And just like you, goes in, and just knocks it out of the park, just on the human story-
Maryann Gallagher (37:21):
Yeah, you have to believe.
Mauro Fiore (37:22):
... and connecting with the jury, and that's what's [inaudible 00:37:25]
Bob Simon (37:25):
Your number one follower.
Maryann Gallagher (37:26):
Bob was saying about this, if you put a cap... Experts are out of control. And I think for younger lawyers, like you're saying, what do they do? They take loans, at crazy amounts of money, to fund experts. How is that justice or a trial?
Bob Simon (37:26):
It's not.
Maryann Gallagher (37:38):
I don't think there should be experts like-
Bob Simon (37:40):
It should be capped.
Maryann Gallagher (37:42):
It should be.
Bob Simon (37:43):
We're trying to write that bill because it's a cottage industry, and they're controlling-
Maryann Gallagher (37:46):
Yeah-
Bob Simon (37:46):
... how things are.
Maryann Gallagher (37:47):
... crazy amounts of money.
Bob Simon (37:48):
It's silly.
Mauro Fiore (37:49):
And not only do they make tons of money, but they're not nice about it, either.
Bob Simon (37:55):
No.
Maryann Gallagher (37:56):
Oh, yeah-
Mauro Fiore (37:56):
A lot of them-
Maryann Gallagher (37:56):
They want their cheque before-
Mauro Fiore (37:56):
... they're just assholes.
Maryann Gallagher (37:56):
Yes.
Bob Simon (37:57):
So I want to thank Maryann, on the show, publicly, but she's really mentored a lot of other women in the space, and it's been very, very nice to see. When she was in a trial, I think it was this year, or the year before, in Riverside, just the amount of chatter, and women reaching out, and watching your trial, and talking about it in real time, on the JustHQ channels, and reaching out. It's just very inspiring because people, you're giving them what you didn't have.
Maryann Gallagher (38:20):
Yes.
Bob Simon (38:21):
Right?
Maryann Gallagher (38:21):
Mm-hmm.
Bob Simon (38:22):
So are you going to be able to, for the legacy part, we talked about your family. What's the headline going to read, when you're 85 years old, and you hang it up, finally? Professionally. The professional [inaudible 00:38:35].
Maryann Gallagher (38:36):
I don't know if I ever... I think the most important thing I want to say is when you introduced me to Jamie, a young woman lawyer. Within a month, I had her in trial with me. I'm like, "Come to trial with me." There's a great law in LA now, that says, it's a local rule, that says you can bring in young lawyers, and they can do part of voir dire. They can do part of cross. So I said, "Come with me." I met her for a month like, "Come with me. Try this case." That's what I want to do. I want to be like-
Bob Simon (38:57):
It's Jamie Wright. Do you know Jamie?
Mauro Fiore (38:58):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (38:58):
So Jamie... I met her at [inaudible 00:39:01], and she was, like, "I need a mentor. Who would be good? Can you help mentor me?" I was like, "I could probably, but I think it might be better for you, with who you are, to reach out... To put her in touch with you, and Jeanne, and a few others." And within a month, she's trying a case with Maryann, and they get it for 10 million.
Maryann Gallagher (39:14):
Yeah, ten million dollars.
Mauro Fiore (39:16):
Well, she walks the walk, but talks the talk, but walks the walk, too. I've heard stories about Maryann, how lawyers are sick, or they can't get something done because they're in trial, and they don't have an associate, whatever. And then you'll hear Maryann just did her opposition to [inaudible 00:39:31]-
Bob Simon (39:31):
Well, she was telling me off camera-
Mauro Fiore (39:32):
... like without telling anybody or anything. She just does stuff to help them.
Bob Simon (39:36):
She wants to use attorney's share, just to help other women cover appearances, or help with just little issues, to be able to make sure you have that support system, so you can be a mom.
Maryann Gallagher (39:44):
Like, "My baby got sick this morning, I need some money." I would jump in, if I knew that was happening. That's what I am trying to do-
Bob Simon (39:44):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (39:50):
... is have a thing. But I think my message is to all women out there, you've got it within you. If you have it within you, you can do it. You can have kids. Have kids. They're a blessing. Try cases, and then I'll come in and help you. Seriously, anybody needs help. I'm not shy to help. So when I'm 80, I don't know. My mom's 97 and... My mom shovels snow at 97.
Bob Simon (40:13):
Wow. Does she have to-
Mauro Fiore (40:14):
Wow.
Maryann Gallagher (40:15):
She's [inaudible 00:40:16] in Philly.
Bob Simon (40:15):
Does she have to carve out a parking spot? Did you guys do that in Philly?
Maryann Gallagher (40:18):
No, she carved out my brother's parking spot. I was so pissed.
Bob Simon (40:21):
You don't know about this stuff.
Mauro Fiore (40:21):
No.
Maryann Gallagher (40:21):
Because my brother's at work-
Mauro Fiore (40:21):
I was born and raised in LA, man. I don't know nothing
Maryann Gallagher (40:21):
My brother is 50.
Mauro Fiore (40:21):
... about no snow.
Maryann Gallagher (40:23):
My brother is 50. My mom's 97. My mom's like, "My shoulder hurts." I'm like, "What happened?" She's like, "I was shoveling the snow," because if you don't shovel through the driveway, there's no way to get your car in. So at nine o'clock at night, my mom goes out, and shovels a place for my son, her son-
Mauro Fiore (40:39):
I think just let her keep doing it because I think it got her this far.
Maryann Gallagher (40:43):
Yeah, it does. It does.
Bob Simon (40:45):
Max Breen, who's one of the producers on the show, I see him over here, he's from Philly, laughing about it.
Maryann Gallagher (40:49):
You're from Philly? What part?
Bob Simon (40:50):
He probably gets-
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I'm from south of Kennett Square so I went to Temple.
Maryann Gallagher (40:51):
You did?
Bob Simon (40:54):
Temple. I saw the Temple. His eyes light up. But just the pain. I hated this. We have to go shovel out parking spots. We put ice down, so ice didn't go on top. Put the salt down.
Maryann Gallagher (41:04):
Put the salt down.
Bob Simon (41:04):
And then you have to put a chair... We put a chair out so nobody parks on the spot-
Maryann Gallagher (41:06):
Yes. Yes.
Bob Simon (41:06):
... and there'd be fights on the street.
Maryann Gallagher (41:07):
Yeah.
Bob Simon (41:07):
If somebody parked in the spot you shoveled, that chair would be on somebody's windshield.
Mauro Fiore (41:13):
Oh, God.
Maryann Gallagher (41:13):
You're out at three o'clock in the morning.
Bob Simon (41:13):
Yeah.
Maryann Gallagher (41:13):
It's freaking ass cold.
Mauro Fiore (41:14):
Three?
Maryann Gallagher (41:14):
You're shoveling snow. That builds character.
Bob Simon (41:16):
It does.
Mauro Fiore (41:18):
Well also, Maryann, the thing too, now, do you see the change now that... In my office, I mean my office is ran by women. All-
Maryann Gallagher (41:27):
Good.
Mauro Fiore (41:28):
Most of the lawyers in my office are women. I think I have five female lawyers, and two male associates.
Maryann Gallagher (41:35):
[inaudible 00:41:35].
Mauro Fiore (41:35):
Everyone who runs, my office manager, my admin, everybody-
Bob Simon (41:38):
But they say now-
Mauro Fiore (41:38):
... it's all women.
Bob Simon (41:39):
... it's the first year that are running [inaudible 00:41:41]. There's more female associates than male this year.
Maryann Gallagher (41:43):
Wow.
Bob Simon (41:43):
First time, it's ever happened [inaudible 00:41:45].
Maryann Gallagher (41:45):
I was lonely for a while.
Mauro Fiore (41:46):
Yeah. Now, I think it's a big change. I think there's more-
Maryann Gallagher (41:49):
There is.
Mauro Fiore (41:49):
... women lawyers than men lawyers.
Maryann Gallagher (41:50):
And there should. But I think the fear of having a family, that's keeping women back from having kids. They're being lawyers, but they're afraid to take that other step, and have kids.
Bob Simon (42:00):
Well, but help them put their careers in their own hands, and find a good mentorship crowd, I think is very, very [inaudible 00:42:05]. So we're going to wrap up this session with Maryann Gallagher, but we have to always ask this. We do at the end of the show.
Maryann Gallagher (42:10):
[inaudible 00:42:10].
Bob Simon (42:10):
Oh, you can finish that, for sure. You can finish the bottle. I know Blake's over there salivating.
Maryann Gallagher (42:15):
That is really good.
Bob Simon (42:16):
Okay, so you have to pick, out of all these ones. We went from the Irish whiskey. We went to Kentucky, for a full proof heavy bourbon. We stayed in Kentucky, to Louisville, for a finished rye, in Caribbean casks. Maryann Gallagher, out of these three, what's your bourbon of proof?
Maryann Gallagher (42:28):
Okay, this is mine, and I'm taking this, and have a nice day.
Mauro Fiore (42:35):
Yeah, that is a good one. That is a good one. Nice and-
Maryann Gallagher (42:36):
This is great.
Mauro Fiore (42:37):
Very, very smooth rye.
Maryann Gallagher (42:37):
It's so light.
Mauro Fiore (42:37):
Very smooth rye.
Maryann Gallagher (42:40):
It's very [inaudible 00:42:40] feminine.
Bob Simon (42:40):
Yeah, it tastes almost like maple syrup. So when people always tell me-
Maryann Gallagher (42:45):
[inaudible 00:42:45].
Bob Simon (42:44):
They come to my... I always have at least one of these at home. When people tell me they don't like whiskey, and they never drank it before. I say, "Well, let me pour you something," and they have it like, "This is amazing."
Maryann Gallagher (42:52):
It's sweet. It's got a little bit of honey flavor.
Mauro Fiore (42:54):
Yeah. No, that's good. For sure.
Bob Simon (42:55):
But a hundred proof. Well, Maryann, thank you for coming on this episode of Bourbon of Proof.
Maryann Gallagher (42:55):
Than you, guys.
Bob Simon (42:59):
... you're an inspiration to many people.
Mauro Fiore (43:00):
Definitely.
Bob Simon (43:01):
Definitely, and we look forward to you teaching my three daughters, and his youngest daughter-
Maryann Gallagher (43:07):
Yes, I'm there for them. Call me.
Bob Simon (43:08):
You can [inaudible 00:43:08].
Mauro Fiore (43:08):
My little one will definitely be a good lawyer. She's feisty.
Bob Simon (43:10):
She is feisty.
Maryann Gallagher (43:11):
Sassy.
Bob Simon (43:12):
Sassy [inaudible 00:43:13].
Maryann Gallagher (43:12):
Good girl.
Bob Simon (43:13):
All right. Well, thank you for coming on this episode-
Maryann Gallagher (43:13):
Thank you.
Bob Simon (43:14):
... of Bourbon of Proof.
Maryann Gallagher (43:15):
Do I get a hug?
Bob Simon (43:15):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Bob Simon (43:19):
Oh, that was a good one.
